The Katie C. Sawyer Podcast
The Katie C Sawyer podcast is a reflection of the outdoors and our changing seasons. Curious about lifestyles within the outdoor industry? Katie is bringing guests to cover ranging topics from the offshore billfishing industry to bow hunting on our nation’s public lands. Looking for stimulating conversations revolved around the outdoors? We have specialized guests including, but not limited to: fishery scientist, professional freedivers, Lure aficionados, professional offshore photographers, global tournament directors, big game hunters, and so many more. If you have a passion for the wild, are always striving to expand your knowledge, from being competitive on the water to the concepts behind sustainable meat harvesting, this podcast is for you.
Episodes
Wednesday May 08, 2024
Ep.05 Capt. Chris Donato: Lure 101 and the Kona Fishery
Wednesday May 08, 2024
Wednesday May 08, 2024
In this Episode, host Katie C. Sawyer interviews Captain Chris Donato, a big Marlin fisherman in Kona, Hawaii. Chris shares his fascinating background, which includes fishing in various locations around the world. He discusses the Kona fishery, known for its lure fishing, and the deep marlin culture in the area.
Our Favorite Lures
Lure Making 101/102: The Kona Fishing Chronicles - Book
Fishing Hawaii Style - Volume 3 - Book
Fishing Hawaii Style - Book
The conversation also delves into the logistics of shipping boats to the Southern Pacific and the different types of lures used in Kona. In this part of the conversation, Chris Donato discusses the different types of lures and their characteristics, including plungers, tube lures, scoop face lures, and bullets. He also shares the historical origins of lure fishing in Kona and the transition from live bait fishing. Chris explains how to choose lures for the spread based on their aggressiveness and loudness. He also discusses the feeding behavior of marlin and the factors that affect lure performance. Finally, he provides tips on adjusting lures for optimal performance. In this conversation, Chris Donato discusses various aspects of lure fishing. He explains how the orientation of a lure can affect its swimming behavior and the importance of adjusting lure position based on wave conditions. He also compares vinyl skirts to rubber skirts and shares his preference for rubber skirts. He discusses the benefits of teasing fish and the challenges of heavy tackle bait and switch fishing. Finally, he introduces GZ Lures and GZ Tackle Co. as platforms for providing the best fishing equipment and educational content.
Takeaways
Kona, Hawaii is known for its rich marlin fishing culture and lure fishery.
Shipping boats to the Southern Pacific can be a challenging and stressful process.
The Kona fishery offers opportunities to catch big blue marlin, with the best months being July and August.
The marlin culture in Kona is characterized by a deep history, ego, and a focus on big fish.
Lure fishing in Kona is a popular and effective method, with a variety of lure types used. There are different types of lures, including plungers, tube lures, scoop face lures, and bullets, each with its own characteristics and performance.
Lure fishing in Kona transitioned from live bait fishing, and lures became more popular due to their effectiveness.
When choosing lures for the spread, it is important to consider their aggressiveness and loudness, with the most aggressive lures placed closest to the boat.
The feeding behavior of marlin can vary, with some periods of aggressive feeding and others of territorial behavior.
Factors such as water conditions, lure design, and rigging can affect the performance of lures, and adjustments may be necessary to optimize their performance. The orientation of a lure can affect its swimming behavior, and adjusting the position of the lure can optimize its performance.
Rubber skirts are preferred by some anglers due to their durability and color variations.
Teasing fish can lead to proper bites and better hookups, but it requires skill and technique.
GZ Lures and GZ Tackle Co. aim to provide the best fishing equipment and educational content for anglers.
Transcript
Katie (00:00.238)Today's podcast guest is proficient in the art of big blue marlin fishing. We're gonna sit down with Captain Chris Donato and go through different types of lures, what they're used for, how you can make them work the way you want them to, and what to look for in the spread. Stay tuned, it's a chat you're not gonna wanna miss.
Katie (00:27.662)What's up, you guys. Welcome to the Katie C Sawyer podcast. I'm your host, Katie. And today we have big Marlin fisherman, Chris Donato, joining us on the scene. Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. So you are checking in from Kona, is that right? Yep. Yep. We're here in Kona. I love that. So I personally have never been to Hawaii.
I've never fished the Kona scene, not even close. I just have heard a lot about it. I'm really excited to have you here. You have an extremely fascinating background that I think might be a conversation for another time. You've done some incredible things. I want you to go over that a little bit with us. Then I really want to dive into the world of lure fishing, which correct me if I'm wrong, but Kona is known for its lure fishery. Yes. Everybody that's -
what everybody's pretty much doing. Unless they're just fishing for ahis or something with live baits, it's pretty much all lure fishery. The conditions just make it easy for us. We're like in a swimming pool and the way the fish feed here and everything. I mean, it's kind of like the birthplace of like modern lure fishing for the most part. And yeah, that's it's it's the spot to do it. That's for sure. I'm particularly excited because it's it's not like you've spent your entire life fishing Kona.
You've spent, I mean, you're originally from New Jersey and fished the East Coast, grew up sometime in Florida, correct? Spent time in Florida. Yeah, South Florida. Yep. And then you ran several charter operations in the Southern Pacific in Samoa and... Yeah, Samoa and then Vanuatu. Vanuatu. Man, that's amazing. So give us a little bit of like a rundown. I want to know...
what your age range was, what you were doing. We're going to dive in in a separate episode of what makes Chris Chris, but give us just a professional rundown of your experiences. Yes, I won't draw it out too much because it's a whole thing we could go down. I pretty much just grew up pretty much fascinated with the -
Katie (02:44.462)South Pacific and fishing and surfing to surfing was probably what brought me more so into that area. Um, you know, I, I went to Costa Rica a bit and did that, but then I, I did a trip down to, uh, French Polynesia. I actually was the first time and actually wasn't fishing. I was actually working on a sailboat. So it's kind of embarrassing to say, but I was pretty young. I was like 17 or 16 or something. I was pretty young and I just wanted, I had an, I had an
to do it and I was like, I want to check this out. This is great. No, come on. What a way to get exposed to it. That's amazing. Yeah, so it was like sailing and surfing and checking that part of the world out. I was like, wow, this is insane. I always love fishing. I obviously thought, obviously, there's a lot of fish here. It took a little while for me to end up getting back down to that part of the world.
fishing wise, I went and surfed a lot, but I would just go surf and come back or whatever. And then I was fishing in Florida and long story short, I ended up being involved in a surfing resort with, with a buddy of mine in Samoa. And so we started building it up and we have a little skips. We go out to all the reefs to surf. And so I was one year like, okay, I'm going to bring down all my Florida stuff.
Cause the seasons were a little bit different. Like, um, and I would go down there when I wasn't fishing in Florida, I would take time and go down or whatever. So I was like, I'm going to bring down a bunch of stuff and just go fish with our little like panga style boats and check it out. What's the time of the year and how old are you at this point in time? Um, at that point I was probably 19. Yeah. Somewhere around that. I think I was pretty young. Um, cause I was, yeah, I was in college. Yeah. Yeah. I was about 19, I think.
Maybe, maybe just turning that, but, um, I don't, to be honest, you know, someone was a little bit like here in terms of like seasons. I mean, you can fish there year round. Uh, it just gets really rough in our summer, which is their winter. Um, and then, um, you know, I get that it just kind of gets kind of choppy and rough and windy and trade winds blow. And, you know, I caught my grander there in November. So I kind of say that that was the season, you know, but I, you can fish there year round really.
Katie (05:08.845)Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. That was a big monkey to get off my back for sure. Anyways, yeah, so I just went down there and just like brought some stuff and just I got my ass handed to me. I mean, I thought I knew what I was, you know, I thought I knew Bill Fish and stuff and I had like, I think my biggest was like a 50.
And I'm on a panga by myself cruising around doing what I probably shouldn't be doing. After your experience, what were you doing in South Florida? Sail fishing and sword fishing? Sail fishing and sword fishing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe in white Marlin or something. Yeah. So it was, yeah. And I had done some, I'd done offshore stuff, but like, I just wasn't to that extent. And so, yeah. So at that point it was like, okay, this is the place.
It took some time and just things just evolved. And next thing you know, I'm down there. I'm running a 43 foot Cabo there and then, um, ran a boat in Vanuatu. And then we cruised around the islands and it just turned into a pretty much what I did up until 2016, um, was just down in the South Pacific for the most part. You know, I come back forth, but yeah, that was it. So just loved it down there. How old were you?
In 2016, what's the time frame there? How many years were you doing that? Gosh, I think maybe 15 years. I was in Samoa. That's amazing. Yeah. I'm not the best with IDA. But yeah, so I'm 41 now, and I moved out here in 2016. So throughout your late teens, your 20s, and into your 30s. Let me get my calculator. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I'm a knucklehead when it comes to that type like timeframes and stuff that some are really not the best with it. But but I was down there for a while. And then I had the 37 Meriden I had someone that came in and was Joe who actually was my crew for a long time. He works on the series now. And he really he was in like the film industry for a while like working as like, I forget what the word I like.
Katie (07:20.749)working with all these like movie stars and stuff, like helping them with things they needed or whatever, kind of like a assistant kind of deal. Um, and he did really well. And then I think he just really wanted to get into his passion of fishing. So he had contacted me and I'm like, man, I'm trying to get over to Kona and we ended up being partners in the beginning and he, he invested money so I could ship that boat to Hawaii. And then he worked for me for years and, um, yeah, it was pretty cool. So that's how I ended up. Super cool.
So you ship the boat from Vanuatu? We had 37 Marriott. No, the Marriott, well, so I went, I was in Samoa for a while, then I went to Vanuatu and I was there for a while and then there was a tsunami that came through and wiped out like our whole resort, everything in Samoa. Was that in 2014? No, it was before then. It was, it just hit like Tonga and Samoa. It wasn't the one that hit like Indonesia. A lot of people think of it, but yeah, it was terrible. And.
Luckily, nobody died on our property, but like, and everyone, the resort got evacuated. We were really lucky there. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was totally lost everything. Um, so we kind of had to make a decision with the insurance and everything like, okay, we're just going to take the money and just say, this is done and walk away from Samoa forever, which was tempting because my life was kind of going in different roads. I was definitely following fishing more with my career than surfing. And so.
but I love the place and I missed it and I just, I had so much, I mean, I still do and I'm going down there shortly, like end of the week or something for us as well. So I mean, I go down there all the time. That was home for so long. Yeah. I mean, it still feels, I love it. It's going to be until the day I can't walk around anymore, like it's home for me as well. I can't imagine. So I'll have to go in there. Honestly, like we've been places with the boat, like we stayed, for example, like La Gomera, we lived there for three years and Drake and I are always like, man,
It's like part of our hearts, you know, like that's a part of you. And I mean, 15 plus years, that's a long time. I mean, I have staff that work at the resort that knew me when I was like 18 years old, 17. They laugh at me. They're like, I go down there with my girlfriend and they're like telling her, oh, I knew him when he was a little. And they're like, he has a pain in the ass. I bet. That's so great. But yeah, so. So you all ship the merit. Yeah. So.
Katie (09:45.133)Yeah, I ended up after that tsunami, I ended up moving back to Samoa because we ended up rebuilding the whole resort. And I was like, I got to be here and manage this and we got to do it correctly. And I'm like, I'm going to turn into a fishing surfing lodge. And so that was the deal and started doing that for the little wall down there. And then, so I had him at that point, sold the, the Cabo got sold in Fiji to a guy. It's still over there. I don't know what's going on with it nowadays, but, and then got the merit down there in, in Samoa, sent it from Virginia.
to Samoa. Oh my gosh. Had it there for a few years and then sent it to Kona. And now it's the boat I'm running now and I'm owner operator. And so the joys of that. Yeah. There's a lot of joys with that type of situation. Oh man. Man. OK. Already just like the logistics. So there we go. That was really good. I'm really impressed. Like what are we? We're 10 minutes in and you've told us your entire life history. So good for you, Chris. You assignment. You've completed the assignment.
The logistics behind shipping a boat already in itself is one thing, but to go to bring, because you brought three total boats to the Southern Pacific. Yes, I shipped three boats down there. One was an Ocean Master, one was a Cabo, and the third was the Merit. None of them were shipped with that yacht path or any of that. I had to deal with, oh gosh, just giving me anxiety thinking about it. It was just dealing with shipping companies and they're like, what do you want to do?
It was earlier in the stage where a lot of people were shipping boats, especially to that region. Or if they were, they were going with Yacht Path or Dockwise. I don't even think Yacht Path is around anymore, but they were the ones back there. I don't know, it was a while back. But anyways, yeah, it was a nightmare. Everything had to be shipped on top of all the containers. And it wasn't fun. I had all kinds of issues. That's a whole different world.
Yeah, I mean, and then after all this and the merit gets to Honolulu and I'm standing there and they're offloading it off the boat in Honolulu and this big gust of wind came and it started swinging back and forth and everybody started scattering. And the guy, my agent that's standing there is like grabbing him. We're like hiding behind a minivan in the parking lot. And he's like, start.
Katie (12:06.957)Yeah, he's like start videoing with your camera because you're going to need this for the insurance company and shit's like falling off the boat as it's like snap swinging. Holy crap. Oh my God. All this and here goes this merit. You know, there's going to be one less merit and I don't know. Somehow they freaking got it under control, got it in the water. I don't know. But yeah, it's shipping boats is I see so many people do it nowadays and I think there's a lot more people involved like to help you do it and.
It's still stressful even now. It's so stressful. There's so many pros and cons with shipping a boat. Sometimes you can't avoid it, like when you're taking a merit from Virginia to Honolulu. Sometimes you can and there's still pros and cons and people definitely decide to ship. Again, a conversation for another time. Also, the logistics behind going into these,
these places that there's not a lot of people going to to start a sport fishing operation and to create a successful charter business. That's really, that's super impressive. So definitely don't want to take away from that because I'm blown away by what you've managed to do. So.
Tell us a little bit about the Kona fishery. I like to approach these podcasts, assuming my listeners really don't know anything about sport fishing and they want to learn. So, big blue marlin over there? Yes. Yeah, we have big blue marlin. Every year is different, but there's always a handful of really, really nice ones caught out of here.
Every year there's at least a few over the mark that are at least seen and hooked, you know, um, and then a few over the mark is yeah. So over over a thousand pounds. Yeah. Um, the last few years, there's been a little bit of a slump where like there haven't been a lot weighed, but there's been a couple of ways in the last, and there was one last year and then I think two years before I, or Marlin caught one. Um, but they're there every year. There's several people that see them. They're just, they're paying the ass to catch. Um, they pull all the tricks. Yeah.
Katie (14:20.461)Um, and then obviously too, when you lose one, it always is a little bit bigger than what you think. So there's a lot of probably 800 pounders that get called over the mark. I would think sometimes, so you never know. But, um, that's still a really big fish. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of like, like bigger, like, like nicer size fish, we get, we get quite a few. Um, I would say, um, you know, things are changing a little bit with that Omni sonar stuff. Like there's probably more, there's going to be more numbers, but, um, historically, uh, if you're catching like,
through the season, like if I caught 11 over 500, I was pretty happy. That was pretty good. But again, that's probably going to start to change, I think with the sonars, because that thing's a weapon over here. Because it's just like a lack of bait. It's flat calm. Like we're fishing in a swimming pool, and there's not a lot of targets to get. No, you don't need a stabilizer. But people are putting them in there because they're just putting them in there, whatever. But if you go up off the ground, so if you go north, it can get a little lumpy. But. OK.
for the most part, Kona, it's just you're fishing in a pool. It's like fishing for bass, but big blue marlin. So it's pretty cool in that regard. So that sonar is making a big difference. But you can find them, you can spot them, you can stay on them, and then you can just watch them come up. So is the season summertime? Is it like June, July, August? Yeah. Well, generally, historically speaking, well, first off, the one saying that's just like,
which has been true in Kona forever. It's like, people are like, when should I come? When should I come? And everybody's like, come when you can come, you know, get on a flight when you can get here. There's big ones caught all the time. There's been a grander caught in every month of the year here. So if you look like at the records, every single month has a grander, you know, a thousand pounder caught in. I think December might be the one with the least amount. I think there might be like one or two in December. All the others have months, but if you look historically though,
The majority of them have been caught in that July, August time period. And so summertime, but like generally a lot of people really like the spring. I've usually seen like my biggest fish of the year in the spring. The fishing can be like really hit and miss. Like it could be, you go five days without a knockdown, nothing. And then you see a 750 and 800 something, you know, pile on. So springtime, I think,
Katie (16:46.925)Most people here that really want like very large blue marlin. They do like the spring. It's kind of like in quiet type of conversation. Like not everybody knows about it really, I guess. They think the summertime is when you would come, but spring, if you could put in the time, you know, if you can only get to Connor for like three days, maybe spring's not the best, but if you can put in the time, there's usually a couple of really giant ones seen in the springtime. Um, and then as you start to get into the summer, we'll get like a run of rats around June, usually.
How big are the rats? They're like 150, 200 pounds maybe, you know, yeah, somewhere in that range. And they'll start to kind of show up in more numbers and then you'll pick through them and then catch a nice one here and there. And there'll be a lot more like 500 and 600 pounders caught through like that June, July period. All the tournaments run all through, well, they really run June, July, August as the final one in September, but the lion's share of the tournaments is all pretty much July.
I don't get a lot of charters in July because I'm fishing mostly all those tournaments. Um, so my charters are like tournament charters, so not a lot of days in between it. And then you throw in the world cup as well. So July is usually a really busy time. So like if people are asking me when they message me, um, I tell them, you know, come in May, June, August, or early September. Um, that's usually a really good time, you know, but.
Pretty much now all the way up until mid to late September. Yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah. How big is the fleet? Well, it's, you know, there's quite a few boats, but it's not giant. Gosh, I guess I could say there might be like 50 or 60 fishing boats, you know, like that might run charters more like recreation. Well, I guess it would be commercially kind of style, you know, like take it.
paid charters are out there more regular. But the actual boats that you'll see day in and day out, I would think might be more in the 20 to 30 numbers. And then there's days where you don't see really almost anybody. That's a good size fleet, though. Yeah, yeah. Some of those boats may only fish a little bit here and there. But I think.
Katie (19:04.365)You know, any day you'll probably see between 10 to 30 boats would be what you would see out there. But like, you know, there's, Kona is starting to shift a little bit. Like it's starting to turn into more of a private boat fishery. And there's the, there's, there are charter boats, obviously, and like all the private boats charter, but the owners aren't like really pushing the charters. They're just kind of more like, so the captains have some days to go out and fish and the crew don't go crazy sitting there cleaning the boats.
But a lot, it's starting to turn into a private boat fishery. Hawaii has just gotten insanely expensive and you know, with like the sonar stuff and things changing, the owner operator thing is a really difficult thing to accomplish here. And then we also have a business out of Kona called Bite Me Sport Fishing, which is like a, it's like they got a bunch of boats and it's kind of like cheap style, you know, like you can pay like a hundred bucks and you'll like share, you'll share a charter with.
whoever, you know, and they do all that kind of stuff. And it's kind of changed things a little bit there. They've been around for a while, but I kind of foresee it being a situation where you'll have basically the bite meat charter boats, and then you're going to have just a lot of private boats. So it is changing a little bit. And, you know, so I would say like in terms of boats that are actually really out there professionally just blue marlin fishing and actually targeting it, there might only be really like 10 or 15 of us.
You know, like for instance, me, like I only billfish and I told my charters that when I first came to Kona, I wasn't that way. Cause I had to, I, I was broke. I mean, I didn't have autopilot on the boat for like two years because I just couldn't afford it. I was like, I was just like, I mean, thank God I didn't have like a major breakdown. Cause I, but would have been for sale. Like I was, by the time I got there and did everything that I was like balancing. I mean, it was like, I was just, I was so stressed. Yeah. And, uh, you know, over years you make a little bit more and then, you know,
could afford an autopilot, could do this and you work your way up. You know, but, uh, so I was just fishing whenever I could, but now I'm in a situation where I'm lucky enough where I kind of, um, I just bill fish and I tell people right away. So when they call me or they text me, I'm like, Hey, look, you know, first off, understand, you know, we, we are just bill fishing. If you want to just go catch fish, that's cool. I'll recommend some guys that are really good at that. You know, if you got like a bunch of kids with you, you had a 13 year old with you that he's going to hate trolling around. Um,
Katie (21:28.365)Let me send you with my buddy who's going to go out and catch you a bunch of Shibis like little yellow fins or whatever. I want people to have a good time. I don't want them to be out on the boat. Like, uh, you know, whatever. And for sure. So there's probably only a few of us that specifically more, more do that. That just focus on the bill fishing. And, um, I think that if you really want to do it right here and like catch a majority of really nice ones, you do sort of have to more target them, um, instead of just pulling.
mixed spread and changing up halfway through the day to go try something different or whatever. I want to get into that. But first, I want to hear about it seems like Kona has, I mean, there's some good fishing there, ahi, ono, excellent stuff, reef, all that stuff. But what is the marlin culture? Because there seems to be a very deep marlin culture in Kona. Sure.
Well, it's, I mean, it's got a really deep history in Marlin fishing. Um, it's, I mean, every year I learn more stuff about the history of it. And, you know, before any of this social media, any of this stuff, I mean, there were guys out there doing just insane stuff and you never even heard about it. And like, there's guys I'll see, like I've known them there and they do something different now, you know, they work somewhere else or whatever. I, you know, served with them for a while and never even knew they fish. And then someone will tell me a story like, Oh yeah, that guy caught like,
three over 800 and this tournament went back out and caught a grander and did that and like all this crazy like all these different stories and you're like that guy you're like what what the heck like the dude cleaning up doing that like what it's just like there's so many like tigers in that harbor that you just don't know about they're very humble or they're quiet or you never knew or like you know instagram facebook all that it's changed fishing in that way because everybody you
Unless it's on a post or something, you don't even know about it really, but there's, there's just such a history here. Um, I mean, it goes back so long, um, to, you know, the early days of, of the Parker, you know, tube lore that caught a grander and all this stuff. So, um, so there's that rich history, um, and, and it's, it's beautiful that way. You know, there's a lot of ego here. There's probably the most ego I've seen anywhere I've ever been. Um,
Katie (23:44.717)So, you know, there's a little bit of a that side to it. And there's just a bit of a big fish mentality here. Like that's what a lot of us are wanting to target and find out there. And there's a chance of like the giant one showing up whenever. So yeah, I mean, really the culture has been lure fishing forever. And there's a bit of a, there's not a lot of change.
that happens here is a lot of like stubbornness to certain ways that have worked and they continue to work. So why change it, right? But there is, um, there's kind of like the old way and there's only like little adjustments and there's a Kona way of doing things and you'll go and jump on other boats in different parts of the world. And it's a very different, it's not very different, but there is a certain way you can jump on 10 different boats in Kona and they're all doing something pretty much. They're all doing the same thing. Um,
where if you go to different places in the world, everybody has their own little spin -off on things or people are doing different whatever. And so there is kind of like a Kona way of doing stuff. And generally that Kona way of doing stuff is like big, loud, heavy tackle, manly, ego kind of centric, big fish oriented. And that's cool. That's what this place is kind of about. So it's funny when you...
get people that want to come here and catch mahi -mahi or something because it's like, I don't understand. Go to the Keys. I don't know. Go to Mexico. What are we doing here? So I always chuckle. But I do understand. People just want to catch fish sometimes. Yeah. Well, they've never experienced an 800 -pound blue marlin. I assure you that that's definitely generally the case. That's not even something that could even cross their mind, what it takes to do that. Yeah. Yeah.
You mentioned the Kona mentality, how everyone is doing similar things and that it's really deep in the culture and that shows. Kona, from what I understand, Kona is known as a lure fishery. That's what I really want to talk to you about today is really diving into lures because my personal experience in the sport fishing space has been primarily light tackle.
Katie (26:04.365)Heavy Tackle has been more bluefin. We did a season in Madeira for Looking for the Grander. We didn't find her. Drake swears he saw her, but there was another fish in the spread. I was laughing when you were saying that, but there was another fish in the spread at the time. Hit our long. It was a good one. She was upward 600, right? Yes. Hit our long and we got her and Drake's up there and the bridge just yelling and we're like, what is going on? We had no idea there was another fish back there and he was like, that was definitely.
That was the fish. I didn't see it, but that was July 3rd too. He was like, I know where she is. We'll be back tomorrow. We didn't see anything. Anyway, I have some heavy tackle experience, but very little lure knowledge. We do a lot of - We pulled teasers in Costa Rica or super proficient bait and switch and pulled a little bit of lures in Madeira. We did like a -
like a mixed spread teasers in the shorts and then lures in the longs. What are the different types of, there's so many different types of lures out there. Can you give us a general rundown? What types of lures there are? The difference between manufacturing and handmade lures. There's a lot of lure makers out of Kona. Some of our favorites are out of Kona.
Take the wheel, Chris. Okay. Yeah. I mean, oh boy, that's it. This is a load of questions. Like there's so much there. Um, but I'll, I will try and generalize it. Um, there's, there's a few like basic shapes and then from those shapes, there's like all kinds of spin -offs, right? So you kind of have what a plunger, um, I grabbed a couple of lures real quick from my garage. So a plunger. So this is, this is a big one.
This is a Lee Simmons one, but this is a bigger plunger, kind of like what Joe Yee called the super plunger. And so you could see it kind of has like a taper right here, kind of comes down a little more taper. So plunger meaning it plunges, it pops down, it goes down in the water, it'll go down deeper. And then the longer, the longer head kind of makes it act a little bit more like a tube in a way. But that plunging kind of.
Katie (28:28.205)drives it down. So you're going to have more downtime in the cycle. And like, generally, these are like pretty consistent with their pop, like, you know, it, you can almost count it like a pop and then 123456 pop one to, you know, they're generally like pretty consistent in how their action is. And they're fun to watch. They're like a pretty, a pretty, pretty good just like, do their thing plunge, pop, do their thing. So that's a plunger. And then, you know, from that head shape, there's like,
all kinds of different things. There's lungers, there's different variations of plungers, there's sharper cut plungers. So the cut is the face, by the way, like when we're talking about a cut on a lure. So there's like, you know, different cuts on it. There's people that might add like a scoop to it. There's different steepnesses of how it plunges down there. So there's so many variations, but the plunger is one style a lure. Then you have a tube lure.
did grab a tube lure. Here we go. There's a tube lure, which is pretty simple shape. It's the first lure because it was a simple shape. And this was, you know, this is more of like a historical style type tube, like a Henry Chi one, like that they were making out of like bar glasses and stuff. This is a koia that he just did like a one off for me on it, but it's a
It's kind of your more historical type of tube. And they've evolved into, here's a tantrum tube, which is made out of acrylic or a type of like acrylic type material. But as the name states, it's a tube. Right. What's the story about the bar glasses? Yeah. So.
Gosh, I don't want to butcher the story too much, but it had something to do with, I think they were like sitting at the Kona Inn. And I think back when, I think it was Henry Chi and gosh, I can't think of who else, but they were, they were basically looking at ways to make lures. And he grabbed a bunch of bar glasses in the back there that they were going to be throwing out or something and put resin in them and was able to basically create a lure off the.
Katie (30:47.437)off the glass and then they cut it to whatever angle it was. The reason the original tube lures and stuff, they're all at a certain angle. They're all set at that one angle. The reason for that angle was back then the tool that they were using to cut it, it was only made at that angle. That's why they cut it at that angle and then it worked.
Wish I had all the stories in front of me right now so I could like go into details because it's really cool. But like people that are interested in that type of stuff, Jim Rizzuto is a really good guy. He's passed away, but he wrote a lot of books. He's a good guy to look up. Like you could just Google him and look up some of his literature and he's done a lot of historical stuff on lores. There's also a good book that...
Joe Yee didn't write it, but somebody wrote it for Joe Yee, and it's about him and about Lors. There's a bunch of good books about Lors, and it's really, really interesting when you start to dive into the subject and hear all the different things. But Jim Rizzuto's got some great stories. So if anyone's interested to kind of elaborate, you could check out his books probably. Well, I'll tag some – put some of your favorite books in the description. We'll get together on that, and I'll add that. So if you guys are listening…
Check out the description. I'll link some of those books in there and you can check it out a little bit more. So we got the plunger, which plunges. Yeah, so you have a two blower. So a two blower is going to kind of stay more on the surface. And we like to call it mole hilling. And they're not all going to do that. But when we're talking about mole hilling, it's kind of like it just like pushes a bulb of water in front of it all the time. And it'll kind of do like a little back, a little tight.
wiggle as it's pushing this ball of water in front of it. And it just stays on the surface, just pushing, pushing water. And every once in a while it'll kind of push a little bit more, but it really does what we call molehill. But some of the tube lures will do more of like, kind of like a skitter right on the surface and really like just explode a bunch of water. They're really aggressive lures. And the only downside of a tube lure is they're hard to pull in rough water. So a lot of people like on the East coast could struggle pulling these. What's his name? Eric.
Katie (32:58.989)aloha lures that that smash bait is probably one of the few him and the cramped in baits I think can handle the rough a bit in terms of a tubular but yeah they're hard to pull in rough water again that's why I like Kona exactly and that's why like we're it's such a good lure fishery because we just have a flat calm and we just sit there and stare at lures so we're all like lure snobs and everybody's you know.
Everybody's got their own thing and everyone's got their own opinions on it. And it's yeah, you just like staring at lords all day, which is it's fun. It's like playing with toys. You're just like, it's exciting. And it's a dress them up however you want. Yeah, exactly. Right. And then, yeah, then you have like, I mean, it goes into all kinds of areas. You have like flat, you know, like just like a flat head, like a hard head or something like a mole, craft wide range or something. Now there's a lot of guys that make them with just a resin.
Um, and then you have just like variations to, you know, like this is a ruckus of Marla magic ruckus. Everybody knows a ruckus. Yeah. I mean, it may, and for what it's called, I mean, it makes a ruckus, you know, um, these things are killer, but, uh, but yeah, that's kind of their own type of, uh, of a shape. Like you couldn't really say, Oh, this is a plunger. This is a tube. I guess it, it might be more along on the lines of like a lunger or something, but.
Okay. You know, there's just so many variations to what there are. And then even these ruckus is like, they make them in like a hard cut. They make them in a soft cut. They make them in whatever, which people don't really know about, but you can ask for it if, or try and find them. But the regular just ruckus you get off the shelf is the one that most people catching fish on. But in Kona, they, you, there is one that's like a harder cut, which we would call like a Kona cut or a hard cut lure. And that's just a, that's just a steeper angle.
on the face and it just it's just a lot more aggressive. But again, it's a lot harder to run. You got to really kind of adjust it in the rigor and everything. So but yeah, I mean, you have that then you have you have like scoop face lures, you know, cup face lures like, like the, you know, and then here's a classic scoop face lure. I call my grander on this, not this actual one in my hand, that one's up on the wall, but but this, this this model. And so yeah, you have like your scoop
Katie (35:16.301)style lures, which are awesome. Um, and this old shape that they were using for a long time back in the day. And then I think they had them, you know, all kinds of different sized and shapes. And the thing about those two is like back when they used to troll, um, the old like wooden, uh, sand, sandpans, they couldn't go very fast. So they needed lures that could like do a lot of action. Um, so like when you start getting into those more like, like plungers and lures that like,
need a little bit more skill in pulling them and stuff. They can't handle like really slow speeds. So, but back in the day, like the sandpans and stuff, they would, they would make them, they would do these. So sandpan is like the old trolling boats that they had here. They were like, okay. I was going to ask, I was like, I don't know what a sandpan is. Yeah, they're weird looking, like the exhaust isn't out the back of the boat. They like an exhaust sticking up out of the top. They were the old original like, yeah, like old banana looking boats, kind of like the Albuquerque boats in the
Carolina fishery or whatever, you know, they're like old historical. There's still like two of them here and they, they, they fish every once in a while. They're like old classics. And how fast, so like how fast were they going? I believe they were like six knots or something like that. They're pretty slow. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so anyways, and, um, so the issue they had was getting action out of the lures because if you're going too slow, some of those two lures, like they get lazy, they'll act weird. Um,
So I think they were adding, you know, they were doing these scoop type lures or, you know, they had these other ones. I think they were called crocodiles or something like that. Back in the day, they were just like a long, a really long head with a crazy cut on it. So they were just trying to get as much action out of these things as they could going slow. Um, you know, I, I, I have to say that like Kona back in the day originally wasn't a lure fishery. It was a live bait fishery and they would mess around with lures and stuff, but really it was, it was a live bait fishery. People would.
grab a bait, they'd go up on the grounds, they'd fish the grounds and everything's changed now. Everyone's fishing south now. No one, I mean, there's guys that fish the grounds, but a majority of big fish are caught down south. But yeah, it was different. So they would catch a bait and then they would pull it off the ledge and they'd be up off the grounds and they would catch their fish off live baits, off tunas and stuff. So that was that fishery. But,
Katie (37:40.845)it started to change over time. And I think Bart Miller had a lot to do with that too, because in between they would catch their live baits, they'd fish their live baits in the morning. And then in the afternoon they would kind of have to do something. So he would pull lures and he would kind of hone his lure pulling skills. And he started catching a lot of fish and they started catching more fish on his lures. And then the fishery started to change from that point on. I think that that was also a transition where things started to go into more lure fishing and then the bait piles started getting harder to find. And,
fishing started getting really good down south, um, which there's not as readily available. Accus and baits to catch and drag off the ledge. And the lower fisheries just expanded over time. But, um, anyways, that was kind of going off on a tangent there, but yeah, they, um, the scoop lures, the thing about those lures are awesome. They're really good lures. They're, they're very aggressive, but you're not going to catch a lot of fish on them just because of the way that the fish feed on them, because they're so erratic and they move around a lot of times.
A lot of times you'll notice if you have one, there's not too often where you'll have a fish just pile on and get hooked. It's usually like smacks it out of the rigger and then comes back and you'll hook them on the second attempt. Um, so for me these days, I think it's a tremendous teaser lure. I pull it without a hook, but, um, when I used to pull a hook in it, I would get a lot of bites, but I would also miss a lot of fish or pull hooks on a lot of fish just because of the nature of those scoop style lures. So the way it's swimming.
Essentially it's swimming exactly. So the way that they eat it and the way that the, where the hook could be when they pile on and, um, you know, it sounds in my mind, it sounds funny because they're eating tunas and all these fish that are dressed, you know, swimming all over the place. So you would think that that would be no problem, but I just think the way they eat it, you just don't get the best hookup rate. Um, but I get so many bites on those things. It's insane. I have one in my spread forever. I mean, I could see how that would.
Simulate a kind of like a injured injured baitfish. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it does for Yeah, I feel like it does like its own set of teasing because it's not doing just the same motion all the time Those things just have a mind of their own So if the fish is sitting there looking at it and all of a sudden it does some weird thing just because it catches a wave different I've seen fish sit under that lure and just looking at it and we're watching the fish and the Lord does something and it's just like
Katie (40:03.469)instant boom and he sticks on it. Can't help it. I think it just has that vibration to it and reaction by it invokes. Yes, for sure. I love that you mentioned that, well, I don't really generally pull this one with a hook. I pull this one as a teaser because of this. When you're picking lures for your spread with hooks, what are you looking for? You want something that makes noise. You want something that is going to
induce a bite from the fish, but also have the hook sitting in the right spot. So what do you look for? Well, um, you know, I, I, I changed that all the time and I, over the last few years, I've definitely changed my spreads around a little bit, but, um, we'll go over kind of, I'll go over like a generalization of sort of, um, what, what you would, uh, what a spread would kind of design to be like. Right. So,
Generally what you'll want is have your most aggressive lures up front. So your closest lures to the boat behind your teasers, behind your dredges, whatever you want, a loud aggressive, like a tube style lure. Generally that closest lure would probably be your biggest lure. So just a really aggressive type lure, a plunger would be a little bit farther back. So more of a tube or one of those scoop face lures or like, you know,
one of those big poi dogs or something like that, right? Something up close, loud, aggressive. And then as you go back in the spread, you kind of slowly taper off the aggression. So, you know, the next position back could maybe be a plunger. And then, you know, on your rigor, you may want something that's a little bit more like of a, just a straight popper, you know, just a flat head or a cup face lure or something like that. And then, you know,
going all the way back to then bullets. We always have bullets in the spread here in Kona. A lot of people think that's like a tuna bait and a bullet is, this is a bullet. And a lot of people - Is that the shape of the head? Because like our bullets are often, I mean, we have one such - There's so many different bullets, like, oh, oh, yeah, here's - I like those little ones for the shotgun. Oh, wow, look at that one.
Katie (42:23.181)So this is a nine inch one. This is, I probably catch more fish on this than anything in terms of a bullet. Like if I need to just catch fish, I put out a Koya nine plus, this is a nine plus. And then there's, you know, there's this one, there's so many variation of bullets too. And then, you know, there's this little bomb boy one, which is pretty, pretty famous. Pretty cool. Little pinky. Um, but yeah, the bullets are huge here in Kona. Um, and I know a lot of places people are like, Oh yeah, bullets are kind of just for tunas and stuff, but we catch.
Majority of our Marlin on them and they work majority. I brought them. Yeah, I think so I honestly would say we catch a lot of them on there It's surprising whatever the reason is and I've gone to other places and I used to always say like oh They'll work like that everywhere and they don't work the same. I don't know what it is in this It sounds so silly and it's just counter intuitive but like they don't work the same as they do in Kona they can't they'll catch billfish anywhere in the world, but I
for some reason in Kona sometimes they just want bullets. Like every boat in Kona has a bullet in the spread every day, no matter what. Even if they're look, even on world cup day, there's a bullet in the spread. I caught some giant ones on those things. So yeah, it's weird because you look at the size of it. The biggest problem with the bullet is that it's so small that when the big ones come up on it, they push it out. And so you always get like a crappy bite sometimes on it. Um,
Because they're pushing so much water. Push so much water. Yeah. And you get this thing come up on the stinger. But you know, I think what happens sometimes and I'll go back to your question there, but I think what happens sometimes with the bullets is they'll come up on a big lure up close and maybe they're just not, they might've missed it or they looked at it. And, um, you know, now that I'm bait and switch fishing there, um, I'm looking at the fishery way different than I ever did. It's changed my mind. It's changed like,
All my perceptions on Kona fishing has changed in the last year and a half. Is that how long you've been bait and switching there? Yeah, pretty much. Well, I guess I shouldn't say a year and a half. I'll be like half a season and then, you know, so half a season, I guess. So maybe not a year and a half, but I've been fully committed to it for half a season, but a year and a half I've been kind of gradually getting into it. But that's changed my perception on what these fish are doing here. And
Katie (44:39.245)So I think maybe they're coming up on those shorts and you don't see them and they may just be looking at it and they're just not ready for it. Or maybe they have a half -hearted bite and you just didn't even see it or whatever. And then that bullet comes past them and it's just such an easy meal. It's like a low hanging fruit. So they just pile on. So I think that's what happens sometimes. And we're just saying they love bullets, but I don't know. It could be, it's just a smaller, easier way out the back bait, you know?
That's really interesting. I have a question because you mentioned that you get those rats that come in around May, late spring, early summer. Do you see, I'm just speculating here, do the rats generally feed more aggressively? Are they going to be more prone to hitting those closer lures than the ones out there? Yes, they go through phases of how they feed.
there's sometimes where they're feeding so aggressive. They're just like, they're not even opening their mouths. It's almost like they're being territorial, which I've heard that's a whole nother conversation. You can have a whole podcast on that. Um, because some people think they're like being territorial right before the spawn or something. And then I've heard people say that they're whacking baits to feed the females below them. And I've heard, I've heard all kinds of stuff, right? You know, I don't know what's the stuff. I like that idea. That sounds sweet. Um,
I don't know if that's what they're really doing. I think that generally when I see them doing that whacking thing where they're not, and they're really aggressive, but they're just not eating very good. There's always like a lot of flying fish and small bait around. And I think that's more so how it is if they're just like hitting stuff and there's a lot of bait around. So they're not like committing, but they go through stages. They go through like phases of how they feed. And when they're aggressive, they'll eat anything. They'll come up and eat. Like, I mean, I used to pull this huge,
stupid big teaser and I've had like hundred and eighty like hundred pounders, eighty pounders come up and be all over it. And I'm like, what are you doing? No, that's not for you. Go away. And so you don't they're just they're very aggressive. And that what does happen, though, like you'll sometimes during that time that's that is when like the females are spawning here. So you might mark a really big one and you'll be like trying to get that big one to bite and you'll get like a crazy aggressive bite.
Katie (47:01.741)If you didn't see the bite, you may be like, oh, that's her or whatever, but sometimes the little ones that are around that female, they come up and mess with you and you hook one of those and then you're like, oh, dang it. That's the case, but they are pretty aggressive for the most part, the little ones that come in. They'll eat everything in the pattern when they're feeding. Everything. Yeah, everything. We had one in Costa Rica, we were pulling a...
XXL poi dog. It's like our favorite lure. Oh, yeah, we got when Drake and I got married We had two separate people give us wedding gifts that were double XL poi dogs. Oh awesome. I love that Yeah, it's a good one. But we had one in particular that I actually have one here that was one of our wedding gifts. It's Oh the fish head one. He doesn't anymore. Yeah, hold on. Yeah, this one does not go behind the spread. No, hold on to that one
We had one that, man, we couldn't keep it. This one also doesn't go behind the spread anymore, but this thing just like - It took some beatings, huh? It took some beatings, but from these little blue marlin in Costa Rica, they couldn't get enough of this one. You mentioned aggressive and loud. Can you just explain a little bit - That's right there. It's aggressive and loud. Super aggressive and loud and just it's pushing water, splashing, moving. It's -
it's making noise. If you're thinking like if you're just sitting in there in the ocean swimming around and there was no boat or anything and that thing came past you and you were even underwater, you'd hear it coming from a ways away and you'd see it coming from a ways away as opposed to like one of these bullets, you probably wouldn't hear anything until it was right up on you and you wouldn't see anything until it was right up on you. So you got to think of it in terms of that fish.
they're in the water and that's coming from a while, it's going to grab their attention. And they're also way more sensitive to vibration and sound, you know, with their, the way their air structures, you know, with their ear structure set up and the way it all works with their swim bladders and how everything works. Like they're feeling all this happening before they're seeing it. And they know you're there before, you know, before they actually have sight on it. So those really aggressive, loud type things I think gets their attention and brings them up in.
Katie (49:17.613)into the spread and whether or not they eat that lure, it doesn't mean that that Lord didn't bring them into the spread. So like, you may have a lure that you pull every day and they doesn't get bit every day, but you're getting bit a lot and you may not even know it, but that reason you're getting bit every day is that Lord they're not eating is raising them. And so I'm like always been like a big advocate of big lures anywhere in the world. Like I go, when I go in Cabo and I fish the Bisbees, that double X poi dog caught.
so many little baby marlin like they have over there and raise so many fish. I'm like, okay, well, even if they're not eating it, it's raising them. They might come up and look at it and then there's something better for them and they'll pile on. I'm a big fan of big lures anywhere you're at for the most part. I like that you mentioned that the bullets, they don't pull the same in Kona as they pull everywhere else in the world. They pull -
They pull very distinctly different. You say you like the big lures and the way they pull in other places as well as Kona. What are some factors that could, you mentioned the swimming pool conditions, what are some factors that affect pulling a lure and what should somebody look for and how do they adjust how a lure might pull?
if they want to keep that lure in the spread, but it's doing something a little off, what are some ways that you can finagle or work with a lure to make it pull a little better? Because depending on your outrigger size, where the lure is in the spread, how fast you're going, the boat, how much draft the boat's pushing, everything's going to be different. What are your thoughts on that? There's a lot to that there. Conditions are big.
that's going to make a big difference on the lures you're going to pull. You know, like when it gets rough, there's just certain lures that you can, you just can't pull them. It doesn't matter how low you pull them in the rig, it doesn't matter what you do. At some point you're, you're, you're being counterproductive because you're basically going against what that lure is supposed to be doing. So if it, you can't force it, that's a, that's a thing. Like I learned with lures, like even it might be your favorite lore or, or you just bought this lore and it's like so pretty and you want to get it out there. But like, look, if it's not running right,
Katie (51:39.757)It's not running right. Sorry. Take it out of the spread. Put something else out there. You know, if it's skipping, if it's bouncing, if it's like doing something weird. Um, and I hate to say it, but like, you know, a lot of these lures that are hand sanded, sometimes you get a bad lore and you can't tell until it takes years and years to really be able to like pick up a lore and look at it and like have an idea like, okay, this one's going to pull hard. This is this side. This is going to do something weird or I don't like the.
It's kind of hard. And if you're buying them, just whatever, like you don't know. So sometimes you could get a bad lore that just pulls to one direction or just doesn't act correctly. And then sometimes you get a magic one that no matter what, it just gets killed. It's just hammered. And then you lose it and you try and get the same one. It doesn't happen the same way. And then you spend the rest of your life crying yourself to sleep. Yeah. So every lore has got its own personality. You really can't force it so much, but you can.
you can persuade them to do what you want it to do. So like what I'll do, we use a really heavy leader. We use that Momoi extra hard 530, right? So not everybody's going to use that. So you're not going to be able to influence the lore as much as we can with that leader. But the leader here, I got actually one rigged as a teaser with, I think 530. Yeah. So maybe I can explain it a bit better. So this one does not have a hook on it, but it's got got the leader rate. So.
You have your memory, right? When you buy leader, it's in a coil and it's just always going to have that memory. I guess unless you like did something, I don't know how you could erase that, but anyway, so it's always got its memory. So like when you rig your lore, the coil is going to come out. If you just let it sit naturally, it's going to come out one way or another. Like it could be like that, it could be like that, it could be like that, right? So generally a neutral position to just make your lore run what it was.
made to do, don't mess with it, just see what it does. It's just having this come straight over the top. So it's just pulling the loop is just coming straight over the top. So it's pulling like that, right? If it's this way, the lures are going to run terrible.
Katie (53:43.661)It's just not going to do the right stuff. So if it's pointed down, it's not good. If it's curling down, it's not going to do well. Yeah, if your coil's like that, it's going to run really bad. And then this also goes into why it's so important to have like a rubber stopper on the back or like a toothpick so you can fix the lure in position. I've jumped on some really, really good boats before and seen they have nothing back there. And it just, that lure is going to do weird stuff because it's going to hit a wave and the hook rig's going to move and it's going to.
There's so many little tweaks. I mean, and I say this because we're literally staring at lures eight to 10 hours a day in a swimming pool. And we go long stretches without bites. So we don't have a lot to do, but just sit there and stare at these things. It's clean blue water. So we see every little thing. So it's like, if there's a little piece of vinyl that's come off, we can tell by the way the lure is running. There's so much to it.
So that coil makes a big difference. So yeah, generally just a neutral position would be to have it come just straight over the top like that. And then what you can do is adjust it. If you want it to run out to a certain way, you can move that coil ever so slightly. So it's kind of like a leash to a dog or something. So like, you know, kind of like that.
and it's going to pull that lure that way. I wouldn't go all the way that way because you'll end up getting that lure will go so far that way to like snap back. It'll like come in and do like wild. That's why it has such an, like an impact. Yeah. But like if you're fishing in a really, really rough, you it's hard to see. I mean, you're just trying to get those things in the water. So I've, cause you know, I fished when I fished in like Cabo and some of those like hurricanes and stuff, I'm just trying to get those lures in the water. I mean, it's just like, whatever. So.
You know, these are, but if you know what they should be doing, and then you can kind of like, you know, that if I do the law, if I put the coil on this lower here, it's going to do this, like, then you can definitely adjust them a bit. So that'll make a difference. That'll pull it a little bit. Um, and then the other thing you could use to, and to, to when, obviously, if you have like a stiff rig, when you, when you turn this leader like that, the hook's going to change its position. So what you will basically want to do is.
Katie (55:57.485)you know, have it where your leader's like that and your hook straight down or whatever, and, or wherever your hooks oriented. And then you move this where you want. And then you could shove like a toothpick in there. We'll hold it in that position. And then you don't have to move the whole hook rig. Um, and then obviously too, like the hook, we always like to run. I don't have a hook rig with me right now. I should have grabbed one, but we always like to run the hook on these, on the, on the slant face lures. We always like to run the hook down. So, so like, yeah, not up. We like them down.
And it basically works as a rudder. It stabilizes the lure. Um, so if you have a lawyer that's running like crazy erratic, try running the hook down. So meaning like the bend and the point is here and then comes up that way. So we run them down, but scoop face lures, I'll vary it depending. They're all a little different. Um, I generally like having the hook up on the scoop what lures and on like cup, like lures with a cup or a flat lore. You have the hook up.
because it's generally going to try and go to that position. If it doesn't have an orientation, it might just make your lure run funny. Hook down, creates a rudder, creates stabilization, and helps keep it more of a straighter. You get better bites that way. That's definitely what our mate... We brought a maiden that had lure fished pretty proficiently into the deer and he was telling me that. I have a question for you.
Now, keep in mind I'm a circle hook fisherman. Sure. Why wouldn't you? Is it just atrocious to think about pointing the hook to the side? No, you can point it to the side, but you're going to - To the inside of the spread? Yes, you can point it either way you want. The problem with doing that, and I'll do, that was the next thing I was going to say, is the hook on lures like that with a big single hook in it, if we're talking single hook.
It creates, it's a rudder pretty much. So as you move the orientation of where that is, you're going to affect the way that lure swims. So if I, if I have my bottom hook, if I turn it all one way, it's going to steer really, really good that like hard that direction. So if you take a single hook and you turn it all the way on its side, that lure is going to pull really hard to one side or the other. Um, so that would be your only, your issue. Um, and.
Katie (58:20.397)Personally, I don't know how much of a difference it would make in terms of hookups because it's like, I run the hook down on almost all my lures and we're always hooking them in the top of the face here. And you would think that if they're coming in and eating, like they would a bait or something like this, you'd be hooking them in the bottom of the jaw. And that's why a lot of people don't like to run, not a lot of people, but there are people that I've had this argument with where they're like,
Well, you're just going to hook them in the bottom of the job. No, it hooks them up top here. So I mean, it's a train wreck when they, you know, it's like, we don't know how it happened. I mean, someone told me the other day, uh, it's like porcupines having sex. Like we don't know how it happens, but it happens. And so it happens some, so they're exploding on the thing. But I think Jean Vanderhoek had a, had a theory where right before they, they actually eat it, it rolls. So when they eat it, it actually rolls a little bit. So the hook point is.
because it's moving water. Yes, so it's turning a little bit and that's what was his theory on that, but there's a million ways to do this. That's so interesting. Your toothpick, you mentioned the stopper, which is essential. Yes, stopper or a toothpick, yes, either or. Then, yes, toothpick, you could toothpick the front to move where the leader's at. There's a couple of different ways of doing it, but that's the easiest way, I think. What about moving it up on -
it's positioned in the outrigger, like the halyard. When would you do that? You're going to want to change that all day pretty much depending on what your tack is, what your conditions are like. Every boat's got a different wave signature. There's certain lures that work on some boats and there's certain lures that don't work on some boats because of what you got in the wave.
You're creating something that you want it basically surfing down a wave. Every lure is going to work a little bit different on different parts of the wave. The higher you have it towards the tip of that wave, the more aggressive and pushing it's going to be. And as you go lower, it'll get lazier. And then if you go off the back of the wave, it'll get very, very lazy or like very not lazy, but it'll calm down a little too much sometimes. So you never really want to put it on the back of a wave.
Katie (01:00:39.725)Unless it maybe was like super rough and you just really wanted to run this lore, you could try that. Um, but I would usually just, as it, as it gets rough, I'll bring it down the face of the wave a little more, even to almost where the, the whole of the wave is there. You can bring it down to the bottom part as it's calmer. I'll go higher up in it. And then every lore, like I said, every lore reacts differently. And it just takes, it's hard to just explain that in a conversation, but like, it just takes years of knowing like, okay.
now I know what that lure looks like when it gets bit. And so you know what it looks like when it gets bit. So you want to try and make it look that way. And it honestly could be a matter of adjusting it like a couple, like a half a foot or something. And it just makes a difference, especially if your boat has big wakes. I fished on some boats that have really, really big waves and they run differently on it. My little Merritt, it's got a...
the waves are good, but it's not like really, really big waves. It's a very like calm, calm spread back there. So like, I don't do too good on like a plunger as much as I do on like a tube with that, with that boat. I just find like aggressive lures get bit more on that boat for me. And it's finding that what works for you and what's working on each wave there. So I would adjust it throughout the day. And then like, obviously like,
If you're sitting there and you're hearing your rigors, because the lure is skipping at any point or coming out just doing this, that drives me crazy. That needs to be addressed. You don't want your lure doing that. I don't care if it's the best lure ever. If you can't get that thing to run without doing that, it's just, I'm sorry, you got to take it out and put something else there that'll run in that condition. If the lure is spending time out of the water, it needs to sit the bench.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, try and adjust it on the wave, try and adjust the angle of the pole. But at some point, you're going to start like being counterproductive to what that lure is supposed to do. You know, if it's a lure that's really aggressive, you want a high pole on it, you want an angle that's like high out of the water. So if you're like bringing it down where it's almost a flat line, and it's not doing what it's supposed to do, then you're kind of being counterproductive, you're better off putting something out there that like would thrive on that that angle.
Katie (01:02:55.341)And then, so yeah, it's just adjusting it through the day. I mean, we're lucky like in Kona that our conditions don't change too much through the day. You might have like a little bit of morning sickness as we come around Caillou V point in the morning. There's like a reverberation off that point. And then once we get, if you're going south, once you get past that, you're like in flat calm for most of the day, you might get a light onshore breeze at the end of the day, but it doesn't change a lot. So, you know, sometimes I don't even put, I don't even have snap swivels. I just crimp everything onto a regular swivel. So I don't.
changed my lores that much, but, um, yeah. Yeah. So it's just, everywhere's different and you're going to have to just kind of see, you know, what works and you know, when, if you have a lawyer that keeps getting bit, just make a mental note of like, this is what it looks like when it gets bit. And I mean, people know what I'm talking about. If they've had that happen and they just know like, Oh yeah. And they're like, this thing's going to get bit. It's doing what it does. So trying to get them to do that every day is like, that's the.
That's a little difference in Kona. I think where some boats excel past other boats is like constantly tweaking and getting the lures to be in the best spot ever. And it may only equate to a few more bites a year, but that's a few more bites a year. So what if one of those was a 90 or 1200? So yeah, there's a lot to it. You know, I think it's funny when people say like, Oh, all lures are the same at eight knots or whatever. And it's like, well, you really haven't fished Kona then.
Cause I've heard that all the time. They're like, ah, I just put a couple of Moldcrafts out there. And, uh, you know, I mean, I get it, but there is, there is a lot to lore fishing. If you're actually going to really like pursue lore fishing, you know, I mean, we all know blue Marlin eats some stupid things. We've seen that, but day in and day out, if you want to get more bites and then other people, you got to figure out your, your lore fishing game, even if you're not putting hooks in them, that's still about a raise a fish. So.
That's my favorite. That's my favorite. What's your opinion on, like, okay, give me the scoop on plastic skirts versus vinyl skirts, rubber skirts. Okay. Yeah. Well, I have a little bit different, like unconventional thoughts on that, but most people here like vinyl. Most people in Kona all love vinyl. Again, it's a tradition here and just things don't die out here. Very, you know, new things.
Katie (01:05:20.237)don't get caught with a lot of resistance here and even rubber skirts. So the vinyl is just the name of the game here. And I can understand why it does have a very, a better transition. Like there's not a lot of bulk to it. So it does have a pretty good transition when they feed on it. And I've heard so many different theories. I've heard that the sound that it makes through the water.
The vinyl itself is a sound that they like. I don't know if that's true or not. I heard that, you know, because it's slippery, it's a little bit better transition. And I don't know, you know, some lures do run better with vinyl. You just got to figure out what works for you. For me personally, I like a rubber skirt with just not a double rubber skirt. I like like this rubber skirt with a couple of newels underneath it. And there's like nothing there for that fish to.
It just slides right through the lore runs good. You still have different colors. Um, and then I, I like the rubber skirts are more durable, um, for me at least. And I find like, I have better color variations now, but that being said, frothy is making those like colorful, uh, vinyl, like fish print vinyl. That's pretty cool. I hear a lot of people liking that. Um, so that's, that's cool. You know, before we only had like a couple of colors we could pick from. So I've been wanting somebody to do that forever. Um,
So I'm glad he's doing that. That's kind of cool. So, but for me, I like, you know, just some new holes, you know, or tough tails, whatever they call them underneath. And then I put a rubber skirt and yeah, you get like, there's nothing there. It's like, what about like, do you see, do you feel that way for both lures and teasers or? No, I feel a little bit differently with the teasers, but I'm a little bit more.
new to like the bait and switch stuff. Um, and so I may change my theories on this, but right now, like with my teasers, I do have, I'm doing double rubber skirts on them. And, um, because I find that without the hook in there and everything, I need to add a little more stability to make the lures do what I want. Um, whereas that hook and that rudder and that's really now taking it out, it's now changed the dynamic of that lore. And at first I was like,
Katie (01:07:44.749)What is going on? Why is this lower doing this? And I couldn't get them to run how I wanted. So I added a double skirts. I added them. I made them a little bit longer, added a bit more stability, um, and was able to kind of get them more to do what I wanted. And then, uh, I also feel like, I don't know, maybe that rubber feel, um, that squishy kind of rubber feel doesn't turn the fish off. It could come back and whack it a bunch of times. Um, but if I have a lawyer that runs good on vinyl, I'm going to keep it on vinyl. I just.
The teasers I'm pulling right now are very aggressive and all over. If they don't run good on vinyl, like scoop lures, they don't run good on vinyl. They get too weird and they'll disappear and they'll get lazy. They'll get all over them. They just don't run good on vinyl for whatever reason. How interesting. Yes. I don't like putting vinyl on them. I think it's cool that you brought up that also additionally, if you have a lure that's not running the way you want it to,
you might change out the length of the skirt, the material the skirt's made out of. Now, when we were bait and switching, we were primarily pulling vinyl skirted horse. It almost felt like, I saw a handful of times when we had a rubber skirt out there that if a fish gets a mouthful of that, if you don't get the teaser away in time, it's -
Oftentimes it's going to get all up wrapped up in there. It almost felt like the vinyl wasn't quite as sticky with the bill of the fish. We had a couple of Marlins swim away with plastic skirts off their bill. We're like, oh man, when that happens. I'm newer to that bait and switch stuff, so maybe I will change my theories on it.
Well, definitely keep me posted as you go because I'm curious. I'm not on all of them. I'm pulling double. I'm pulling how I have this, one rubber skirt with the noles underneath. So far, I haven't had too many problems, but we'll see. That's cool. We're running low on time, but I want to touch on a couple of things. The first one is with your bait and switch, are you pitching?
Katie (01:10:01.741)130s out there? Well, right now we're pitching an 80 that I beefed up. I got the drag redone and beefed it up, put 130 on it with backing and all this, but I don't know, but we're going to try that because what happened with us towards the end of last year was my, it was my biggest concern was it's, you can't pitch a 130 really like you have to be so good. And, uh, I just don't think it would work. And, uh, so we were doing like the tingham where you put a lore.
And, uh, so they were converting really good to the tingham, but we weren't catching every fish and it wasn't like pitching a dead bait to them. It's just a different thing. So we were, yeah. And we were trying to, and I know a lot of guys in Madera do it because sometimes they can't get bait or whatever. And so they, they pull those tingams, but they get a lot of shots there. Like our fish, you know, everybody's going to say that you cannot bait and switching Kona. That's what, that's just what people say. That's what they're telling me that I'm.
making a mistake, doing it, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's, they do bait and switch, but you're not going to get as many shots as like you would out of a fish. Like every, they're different everywhere, right? Like St. Thomas, they're going to pile on so many times, right? Like, and so they're a little bit different. Yeah. So they do feed a little differently. So, um, yeah, I think the, the dead bait thing is, is better than trying that tangum. Um,
I don't know. We missed some fish on that tingam and I was like, what the hell? So what is the tingam? It's like a lure that you pitch? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think the original one was like basically a mold craft with no skirt underneath it with only a couple strands of skirt and just a hook. So it's just a piece of rubber with a hook. And so any variation of that, I think you could be called the tingam. And basically you put it in your spread as you're teasing the fish.
And so you basically don't want to get it out there until that fish is, is gone. You basically want it going past. So the fish doesn't see it as it's chasing that teaser. And then you want to get it in position because ideally you want the going away by on the tingam. You don't want them chasing the teaser and then switching and eating a going like a behind bite. You want to aim for a going away bite, which is different than a bait and switch, right? Cause I don't really want that going away when you're feeding one. I.
Katie (01:12:21.677)as much as you would with a tingham because that going away bite with a hook lure is going to be way better than the behind because he's got that hook as he's eating it. He's got that hook coming right at his face. So, so if you get that going away, if you do like inch, like make it all work, right. It worked pretty good. Um, but, and they're not all going to feed that way. A lot of times you just get that side rush, you know, and then, um,
It's just like lure fishing, whatever. I mean, might as well, whatever. So the only thing that, and then that changed my opinion on lures. And like how I said earlier, once I started bait and switch fishing and all that kind of stuff there, I started thinking about the marlin fishing in Kona way different. Because I saw that when she got them fired up on a very aggressive lure, didn't matter so much what was there. They're gonna eat whatever was there next. So.
My, my thought was like, well, if our really aggressive, crazy lures that raise these fish are terrible at hooking them, then, you know, how often are they coming up and missing them or whatever, and then eating these other ones that are easier running lure, um, like a straight runner or, or something like that, that, um, has a higher hookup rate. Then why are we, you know, I don't want to put.
hooks in these big aggressive stuff anymore, or this, you know, stuff moving all over the place. I just want them to convert to something that is going to hook them and that changed my mind on what these animals are doing. I mean, I've had times where they come up and hit, you don't even see them and they hit the teaser and I have clips up in my bridge. And they're big fish. Yeah. And like I'm staring, I'm looking and I've never seen the fish and it comes out of the clip.
And if you didn't know better, you would have just thought, Oh, maybe they hit a piece of grass or like, we don't have grass in Kona really, but maybe you don't have roadways. Yeah. Like we went downhill, like we went down, see it caught a wave and you look at the teaser and you pull it away and there's nothing there. The fish is, it was a ghost and you're like, what happened? And then out of nowhere, there's like, uh, out of nowhere, the stinger comes down and you got them on.
Katie (01:14:38.445)And so I wonder how often that happens where a fish will just come up on one of those you don't see it and then eat those easier lures in the back. So I've changed my spread to have a lot better hookup rate stuff in the back. That's cool. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I was going to ask you what's the benefit of teasing the fish? When you're talking about the tingam.
You're like, I don't have a bait, but I have a lure with a J hook. I'm going to tease the fish up and then give them this lure with a J hook. Why even pull the teaser? How does the behavior of the fish change when you properly tease one? That was the thing too, people will say that. If you're going to just switch it to a lure, if you're going to just switch the fish over to a lure, then why pull? You know what I mean? Why pull?
Why not just put a hook in your teaser, right? And the reasoning behind it is that you're trying to make that fish do a different bite. So you're wanting it, when they come up on the teaser or when they come up on a big aggressive lure up like that, you don't know how that thing's gonna feed. It could do whatever. It could come up and explode on it. It could come up and whack it with its bill. So your chances of hooking that fish is up in the air.
But if you tease that fish all the way in there, they're, they're, they're getting aggressive. They're pissed off, you know? I mean, as long as you can tease it away. Like I found like, if I struggle and I can't get it away and he eats it too many times, then I'm kind of screwed. And then you're kind of like, that's, that's where I mean, I mean, that's why I like it so much is because there's just so much skill in it and there's so much involved in it. And there's so much, like, it just adds a whole nother element. But yeah, if that thing gets you like,
Yeah, you're screwed. But if you can, if you can get it away and get everything in position, that bite is going to be a proper bite usually. And like what we were saying with the lore was that we're hunting for that going away bite. So you're not always going to get a going, you generally aren't going to get a going away bite when they come into the spread from behind or whatever. You're going to usually get like a inside out fight out call it, which isn't a bad bite either. No. Or.
Katie (01:16:55.949)The worst, I think sometimes is the ones from behind or if they just come straight up at it and like a shark at back. Especially with lures, especially with day hooks. Yeah, it's not the best. So, and that's probably where you were like talking a little bit about having the hook on its side that might, you know, and that's where people, you know, then you can go down the double hook rig where you have one on the side and one down and maybe that would help. But yeah, you're a...
you're not going to get that going away by what you want. But when they come off the teaser and then you have what you would call a tingum, if you can get that over the shoulder going away, when you see that back and like if I'm sitting in the bridge and he eats it that way and I see his back and I see his dorsal, you're like, oh yeah, we got this guy. That's so cool. Pretty much. That's so interesting. But it's still, it's not as good as a dead bait. I don't care what anyone says. Like it's not. And a circle hook.
We had, yes, in a circle, like we had him eat it perfectly. And I'd just been like, oh yeah, no worries. Like whatever. And then pull hook at some point. We're just. That hurts. Yeah. So it's just not as good as a dibbik, but, uh, if you don't have it, it did work. And that's what we were doing with the one 30, because you can do it with a one 30. We were just having a drag light and then he would, my mate would hold it and get it over to where it needed to be. And when it ate, he would let go and run over and then slowly push the drag up.
And, uh, and that was kind of what we experimented with at first, because the, the, the consensus in Kona is everybody says the fish don't tease in Kona and you, you cannot bait and switch in Kona. And I disagree with it, but that's just my opinion. But I, we wanted to just test it first and see. And from what we saw, um, I can't make a full, like proper, this is going to work there until I give it a good, like maybe a couple of years.
giving it hard, but from what I've seen so far, I believe that the fish will tease you and I believe you can do it. It just takes work. It's different. Yes, it's totally different. It's a different, I mean, say like me going in and trying to lure fish, I just like, I don't know what I'm doing. It just, you have to learn, you have to learn the game. You have to relearn the game.
Katie (01:19:11.341)Question for you, you're working now with GZLures. We're going to be doing some collaboration moving forward. You want to talk a little bit about what you guys are launching over there? Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing is GZLures. A lot of people get confused with the name and they think we make lures. And we do not make lures. We leave that to the artists, the professional lore makers.
I mean, I wouldn't even attempt to make a resin lore. I just, it's not, you have to, I have a lot of respect for these guys. That's what they do. And that's the lores we carry are the ones of the guys that have been doing it forever, not the person that just picked it up as a hobby. So, you know, so we carry lores. And I think that that is where the, you know, that's where it originally started was it was just a lore, a company that sold lore. So that's where it became GZLores. We're now kind of transitioning.
to that we're going to also be using the name GZ Tackle Co. And so basically, yeah, so we're an online company and our goal is to sell the best of what's out there. So, you know, the stuff that professionals use. So like, for instance, working with you on that side of fishing and, you know, my specialty is what we just talked about. So I can all day long know what to pick. I can know what lures we want, what this, that hook rigs, all that stuff. But then when we start to venture into different areas of fishing,
we're using our pro staff, I mean our pro team, and we're doing a collaboration with you on a bunch of stuff. And like, so that's ideally what we want to have. We don't want a customer to go on our website and have like 20 different hook brands and 20 different hooks and like 15 different lines and kayaks and all different fishing. That's not us, it's just not gonna be what our model is. That's not what we're based off of.
And maybe there's more money in that, but that's just not what our, that's not what our plan is. Our plan is to provide like what the professionals are using, working with the professionals to provide what is the best stuff out there. And then putting together content on like how to use it, how to videos, like things like that, like just providing the elements. So, you know, if you go on this site and you're like, okay, I want to buy this hook. I want to buy this. I want to do this.
Katie (01:21:31.725)And then you can be like, well, why do we have it? And then you can read the different reasons and learn. And so, I don't know, we, we felt like there was a hole in the industry for that. And so when I got involved, um, and became a partner on the company, I just basically told Cole straight up like, yeah, I want to do this, but we got to do it right. Like, I want to carry what's the best stuff out there. Um, and I, you know, I don't want to get persuaded to like carry this guy's lures because he's a friend of someone or what, like we want to carry what is the best stuff out there. So.
That's our mission and it's been fun. I love it actually, I really do. And it's growing and then what we just did now was launching that subscription service, which is, you know, it's got a lot of elements to it right now. Like for instance, like you get a discount, there's like exclusive content on there. We have like discounted charters all over the world. We have like a social media type thing on there. So we wouldn't go and talk with each other and.
Just a bunch of like, that's just a start, but mainly like the thing is a platform. And I have, we have a lot of ideas that we're going to start implementing into it, but it's a platform that can just be useful in so many ways. And we can do like live seminars on the thing and we can do talking about doing like chaperone, like not, I shouldn't say chaperone. That sounds funny, but like, like trips where like one of the professionals goes along on it. It's like a school. It's not like a chaperone. I mean,
Be the exact opposite of a chaperone trip when you think about it. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, like, I'm going to make sure you guys are okay. Bedtime is 10 o 'clock. Okay. We're fishing tomorrow. No, it's the exact, probably the exact opposite of that. Like hosted trips. That's awesome. Hosted, hosted trips. That's the word we need to use. The chaperone thing used to get thrown out. So hosted trips. Um, and I mean, there's just all kinds of ideas we have that we're going to.
you know, jump into it and just kind of just as more people get involved in like the budget increases and we can do things where just the platform will continue to grow. It's not, it's not going to be one of these things where it's like, okay, this is what you get and never, never changes for five years. Like I want it's a full time job. Exactly. And that was the main thing like Cole and I had to be like, look, this is not going to be like a passive thing. Like we do this, we're going to do it right. And it's got to continually evolve. So.
Katie (01:23:53.709)That's why it is a paid subscription because it's like, the stuff we want to do, it can't just be done for free. I love all you guys, but come on, how we do this without some sort of income? It's got to - No, if it's going to be educational and it's going to be good, it's going to be - Yes. The subscriber is going to grow from the experience with the GZ -Elite membership. That's the plan and we call it GZ -Elite. That's awesome.
That's where we're at with that. Well, you guys, if you're interested in that, I'm going to go ahead and tag that in the description below as well. Make sure you check it out. Chris, I can't thank you enough for your time. I have one last question for you. What is it that keeps you coming back to the ocean? Oh, wow. What is it that keeps? Well, I mean, it's like everything for me.
I couldn't live without it. I mean, between the surfing and the fishing, I mean, it's everything. I mean, it's like my mistress, I guess you could say, because it's like, it takes me away from everything. But at the same time, like when I'm there, I'm just so in love with the fact of being in it and being involved in everything that's going on out there. And yeah, it's just, it's everything, you know? It's being outdoors, it's the activities of it, it's enjoying the ocean. So.
I can't really say what one thing is, but I just know that I couldn't live without it. Even if it wasn't fishing, there's always have to be involved or on the ocean or near the ocean. That's just how I am. Whatever reasoning that is, it's not changing. I don't see that happening. I'm definitely not going to be in a landlocked state at some point in my life. I sure hope not. I've been for good. That was awful. No, that was a great answer.
I love it. The way the ocean makes us feel, you just can't compare it to anything else. Oh yeah. You get home after a day on the ocean, fishing, surfing, whatever it is, whatever you're doing, just even going swimming, going to the beach and going swimming all day. You just have that feeling about you that I have yet to see anything similar. It's a healthy high. It's a healthy high. I love it. It's a salt. Exactly. Yeah.
Katie (01:26:16.429)Cool, Chris. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for taking us to Lure 101 school. And we'll definitely have you back on this channel and talk a little bit more about what it takes to fish around the world. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much to the lure thing. I feel like I opened so many rabbit holes and like, there's just, you could go on for hours and hours, but I hope the little things I did say helped. And I'm sorry if I like left out some stuff or botched some stories here or there or whatever, but, um,
You get the idea and I'm happy to talk lures with anyone whenever I love this stuff. It keeps me excited. Y 'all check Chris out on GZ Elite. Chris, will you also tell us where everyone can find you on social media? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grander Marlin. So pretty easy. Grander Marlin. Pretty easy. That's pretty rad. Thanks so much for joining us, Chris.
And that's a wrap you guys. You heard it here on the Katie C Sawyer podcast. If you're watching this on YouTube, don't forget to like and subscribe. Leave a review on your podcast listening platform if you would like to. And as always, don't stop chasing your wild. We'll see you guys out there.
Wednesday Apr 24, 2024
Ep.04 John DePersenaire: Speed Reduction Zones in the North Atlantic
Wednesday Apr 24, 2024
Wednesday Apr 24, 2024
CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CONGRESSMAN:
https://www.boatingunited.org/take-action/congress-protect-boaters-speed-restrictions/?
Summary
In this conversation, Katie C. Sawyer and John DePersenaire discuss the proposed rule for the North Atlantic right whale situation and its implications for boaters and seaboard communities. They highlight the importance of speed for recreational fishermen and the economic impact of the proposed rule. They also emphasize the need for collaboration and the use of technology to address the issue. The regulatory process and timeline are also discussed. The conversation discusses the dual path process of rulemaking, with an interagency review and a public side. The role of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) is explained, along with the challenges of the public not being aware of any changes made to the rule. The formation and work of the Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force is highlighted. The current stage of the rule being in OIRA's hands is discussed, along with the strategy for the ongoing public comment period. The involvement of the Small Business Administration and the importance of a comprehensive approach are emphasized. The potential of recreational anglers as an untapped resource is mentioned, and a call to action is made to reach out to local congressmen and participate in the Boating United action alert.
Takeaways
The proposed rule for the North Atlantic right whale situation has significant implications for fishermen, including economic impact and access to fisheries.
Speed is essential for fishermen to reach fishing grounds and maximize their trips, and the proposed rule would greatly restrict their ability to do so.
Collaboration and the use of technology, such as artificial intelligence and marine electronics, can help reduce the risk of vessel strikes on whales.
The regulatory process for the proposed rule involves public comments and review by various agencies, with the final decision taking into account economic impacts and other factors. The rulemaking process involves both an interagency review and a public side, with the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) playing a key role.
The public is not made aware of any changes made to the rule during the interagency review, creating uncertainty.
The Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force is working on a comprehensive approach to reduce vessel strike risk and protect North Atlantic right whales.
The current stage of the rule is in OIRA's hands, and there is an ongoing public comment period.a
The involvement of the Small Business Administration and the need for a balanced approach that considers both industry needs and whale protection are important.
Recreational anglers have the potential to contribute valuable information and technology to mitigate the risk of vessel strikes.
Transcript
Katie (01:42.718)What's up, you guys? Welcome to the Katie C. Sawyer podcast. I'm sitting down with John DePerson here today. John, tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are.
John DePersenaire (02:26.149)Yeah, sure. Thank you, Katie. And thanks for having me on. So my name is John DePersonere and I'm the Director of Government Affairs.
So that's a really broad title and it really encompasses a lot of different aspects of my portfolio of work. So obviously things like regulatory issues, government affairs issues, things that have to do with either regulatory or legislation that impacts us as a manufacturer in the marine industry, but also how our customers use the boats. So like fisheries management, that's all really important part of that.
as well, but also then on the sustainability side, looking at things like efficiency, looking at our energy use, looking at our waste stream, all those sort of things, supporting efforts to support fish habitat and some other projects that we're doing. So it's a really broad scope of work and it's really, really interesting.
Katie (03:23.458)That's awesome. That's a huge responsibility on your end. And like you said, broad. Before I started fishing, I was working, not even close, but I was working as director of environmental health and safety for an oil and gas company. And it's just like there's like this entire channel of products that you're supposed to manage. And you're like, I like this is so, so broad. But that's amazing. I'm really, really honored to be sitting with you here today. Thank you so much for giving your time. I really want to jump into what's going on.
on right now with the North Atlantic right whale situation and the proposed rule that was set forth in August of 2022 and how that's affected us and what we can see moving forward. So can you just give us a little bit of a status on what's going on with the right whales and what the what rule was proposed as a reaction of that?
John DePersenaire (04:17.536)Yeah, so, you know, this is an issue the industry has really been following carefully for the past year and a half now. And as you said, you know, this proposed rule came out in August of 2022, and it was driven by NOAA. So NOAA has a an office within it's called the Office of Protective Resources. And their job is to carry out and implement.
the mandates of the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act. So with North Atlantic right whales, they are, there's no question that they are in pretty serious, dire concern in terms of a population size. And just, you know, recognizing the history of that species, it really was one of the targeted, most targeted species in commercial whaling for centuries, which really-
drove down the population, but also imposed some sort of ecological constraints, which just made it much harder to rebuild when commercial whaling stops. So like when you fish a, or not even fish, but when you hunt a population down that low, you start to have genetic issues. And we see that like with, you know, upland hunting and things like that, you try to manage for a strong gene stock. And so that was one of the constraints. So that like, you know, if you look at
reproductive output for North Atlantic right whales, it has been trailing off. And so it just makes it that much harder to rebuild. So they know the two main sources of mortality for North Atlantic right whales are entanglement with fishing gear, mostly lobster pots up in Massachusetts and North and also up in Canada where they spend their summers and vessel strikes. And so NOAA has been trying to...
up with management measures that addressed those two sources of mortality. And so the rule that came out in August, that was directed towards the latter, that was directed towards reducing risk of vessel strikes. And what that did was it expanded upon an existing rule that was in place starting in 2008. And what it did was it dropped the size class of vessel that would be subject to vessel speed rules. It expanded the areas that would be subject to the seasonal management areas.
John DePersenaire (06:39.036)And it also expanded the vessels. So it dropped it down from 65 and above down to 35 feet and above. And so what that really did was originally the 2008 rule was really focused more on the ocean-going vessels, so like the container ships, the tankers, some of those really high displacement, high tonnage boats. It also captured some of the recreational fleet as well.
but the intent was really the bigger ocean growing vessels. And so this step now starts to bring in a massively different segment of the fleet now. And you're starting to bring in center consoles and a whole bunch of boats that have probably never even seen a North Atlantic right whale. And so this is all about reducing risk. And this is what is somewhat different than what we typically deal with fisheries management.
Katie, I know you're really versed on highly migratory species, you know, and so a lot of times we're dealing with, you know, quota setting and, you know, really specific percent reductions, trying to get to a sustainable biomass and things like that. So we can tailor regulations based on that percent reduction we have to achieve. This is a little bit more nebulous in the sense that we don't actually have that number that we need to reduce risk by. And so that's a really challenging thing.
for us to look at. And so we're just not versed in trying to figure out how we come up with a solution to that. And so when we first saw the rule, we're like, oh my God, this is gonna impact a vast number of boats. For a lot of people, it's gonna go into effect November 1st and last through the end of May. So those are really, really important times of year for up and down the coast now. I mean, as you know, like we have some of the best tuna fishing off of...
New York and New Jersey now in November and December, which is crazy to think, but I mean, it's just, those are no longer months when people have their boat out of the water and up on the hard for the winter. It's, you know, we're fishing all the way through January. And so that becomes a real, real big impact. Also guys that move their boats from say our area down to South Florida in the fall, you know, they're gonna be subject to this. And so what, you know, typically is a...
John DePersenaire (09:02.128)know, two, three day trip now becomes something massively different when you're going 10 knots. And so there's all sort of implications that we have to think about in terms of impacts of this. But one of our biggest criticisms was obviously, you know, a recreational boat hitting a North Atlantic right whale is an extremely rare instance. In fact, we have some third party analysis that really shows that it is like that one in a million chance. I mean, that really is
numbers of boats and the numbers of strikes that are attributed to those boats under 65 feet. But the other thing that we were we were sort of upset about was that there was really no alternative in there that took into consideration technology, right? And so, you know, Katie, I know you've run boats for a long time and, you know, boats are constantly improving it. And so for,
you know, every time you come out with a new model, it's always safer than the last model. And that's just a function of, you know, engineering, design, improvements in marine electronics. And so safety is just one of those key elements when you're building boats, you know, safety, efficiency, performance, amenities are sort of like the top four things, right? And so a big part of safety is collision avoidance. Like, and we don't want to hit anything that's on the water. I mean, you know, like,
Katie (10:29.37)I think what a lot of people don't understand is that a vessel between 35-65 foot, if it hits a whale, we know and there's gonna be damage. There's gonna be significant damage to the vessel and like you said, potentially the safety of the people on board. That's a really good point.
John DePersenaire (10:47.82)Yeah, so I mean, the point is, is that, you know, this is a space that, you know, we and other builders and the whole marine industry are constantly working on. It's not like we just heard about this rule and like, now let's figure out something to do here to not hit whales. Like this is just something we do and not to put it in a in-person way, but a North Atlantic right whale is just another object in the water that we do not want to hit. And we have been developing products over these years that allows us not to hit them at a reduced rate. So.
We've been making progress on this and we were, it was unfortunate that there were no alternatives that kind of gave us credit for that or provided an opportunity to explore how technology can reduce risk. So, of course.
Katie (11:31.502)I'm going to stop you right there before you go on because this is a great segue. The first thing I want to touch on is you said a couple things throughout that were interesting points. So from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, in 2008 there were speed reduction zones put in place in the Atlantic Northwest of the ocean, Atlantic Northwest, Northeast of the U.S. That always gets confusing for me. Where speed reduction zones for ships above 65 foot.
length. Is that correct?
John DePersenaire (12:03.6)That is correct. And most of those areas were around sort of the entrances to major courts. So like the approach to New York Harbor, Delaware Bay, Chesapeake Bay, Cape Fear. Then there was also areas south of Cape Hatteras where there are seasonal nursing areas and calving areas. So like where the mother and the calf are spending a lot of time down there in the winter time. And they are vulnerable down there, there's no question.
Katie (12:29.118)Yeah, for sure. And it's specific in areas where you see a lot of cargo ships coming through because it's significant to global trade and economy. Now, can you tell us a little bit about how, if there was any impact on our economy based on the speed reduction zones for vessels of that size?
John DePersenaire (12:49.304)Yeah, I mean, you know, one thing that's been interesting about this rule is it sort of brought a lot of different sectors together that typically didn't work on, you know, issues together. And so one of those, well, a couple of those sectors were pilots, you know, fast ferries, the shipping interests, the ports, and, you know, so offshore wind, you know, they all have really big concerns and they...
speculate it's going to have implications not only for their operational needs, but also you think about just getting product to shelves. Does that impact supply chain issues? Does that impact availability of products? Does that impact cost to the consumer? So all those sort of things are playing into this and they certainly have implications that are not discrete to
recreational fishing and boating, this is something that would impact a significantly broad part of the maritime commerce in general.
Katie (13:56.398)Mm-hmm.
But, okay, let's talk about how you said it's difficult, I believe, I think you said that it's difficult to quantify the population of whales right now. Do we know how long it takes for them to reproduce and they have how many, they have one pup, I think it's a pup, right, a whale? I'm not sure, one baby, a calf, that's right. A calf at a time, correct? And every now and then too, but like you were saying,
John DePersenaire (14:18.835)Cheers.
Katie (14:27.912)significantly decreased base to overfishing or over harvesting. So in the past, way years ago. So I just want to like really clear up the blurry areas of the last 15 years of regulation to help protect these Atlantic right whales. Is that what you said? Is it the population's difficult to quantify?
John DePersenaire (14:53.912)Well, it's not typically challenging to quantify it. And in fact, North Atlantic right whales are probably one of the most studied and monitored large marine mammal populations in the world. I mean, that's a fact. What I think difficult is that, again, we're not seeing reproductive output that would sort of get us to that number that they believe it needs to be at to be considered sustainable.
And so, like, for example, I'm not a North Atlantic right whale biologist, so I don't know the exact numbers in terms of, you know, their gestation period and how, you know, their sort of calving cycle. But I do know from a management standpoint, the agency is sort of looking for 50 calves a year to, for many years to get the population to a sustainable level. And if you look at reproductive output over the past, you know, 10 years,
I don't think we've gotten to 50 once, you know. So it's sort of underperforming and there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, genetic issues are one, the population size is small, so it's harder for them to communicate and find the mates. You know, there's things happening with climate change and their food source, you know, they're really dependent on copepods and, you know, they're not sort of like a humpback that can, you know, switch from, you know, herring to bunker to, you know, anchovy, you know, like,
you know, they're really discreet feeders and they are really keyed in on copepods. And so their availability of copepods is somewhat changing and perhaps putting them in more areas where they're vulnerable to things like ship strikes. So there's a lot of challenges that are happening there.
Katie (16:37.45)Yes, excellent answer. I love it. So what we're seeing is we're trying to, well, Noah put forth a rule, a proposed rule to try and limit the speed of vessels to help protect these whales, but there's lots of potential issues associated with that. Now you mentioned taking into...
Now, you mentioned taking into account technology. Can you go on that a little bit for me?
John DePersenaire (17:07.936)Yeah, so, you know, and I think it's important, maybe your audience, it's not really important, but yeah, I know for some people involved with this issue, this is important, and they don't quite understand this, that for us, speed is an essential element of our boats, right? Not only is it, you know, safer, you know, to run a boat when it's, you know, operating at a, you know, at the most optimal speed.
But for us, we're not necessarily designed to be out in weather that a container ship can be out in. And so speed allows us to maximize on these weather windows of opportunity, right? And so if we are trying to get to fishing grounds and it takes us say two hours to get out there, we can conduct our trip and get back before that weather turns and makes it unsafe out there. If we are now forced to, you know,
to have that two hour trip now become six hours to get out to wherever those grounds are, that could put us in a unsafe situation or we just canceled the trip altogether because the weather window was not big enough. So speed is one of those things and just everything about our vessels is designed around performance, speed and range. And that's really the only way recreational guys can access the fisheries. I mean, we are not...
commercial fishermen where we can go out, you know, 10 days at a time and, you know, say goodbye to the family and say, Hey, I'm going marlin fishing. I'll be back in 10 days. Maybe some people can do that, but you know, it's a different, it's a different element for us, you know? And so speed is, is it's not something we can dismiss and say, well, you guys can just go slow and still carry on your way. Like it doesn't work that way. Speed is an essential element of our boats.
Katie (18:42.37)Yeah.
Katie (18:54.002)And why is it important for these fishermen to be able to get out to the fishing grounds instead of canceling their trip when there's weather? Like tell us about the economic benefits of that.
John DePersenaire (19:02.964)Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, so well, I mean, it's well, first of all, it's it drives a significant economic impact. I mean, so just from Viking standpoint, I mean, this is a really prime example. You know, we're the leader of the world leader in terms of building sport fish boats. You know, we produce the most in the world and our boats are really designed exactly to go far and fast and engage the highly migratory species. And so if you take away our ability to.
to go fast and access the fish that our boats are designed to do. I mean, the value of that goes down significantly, you know. And so, you know, we have over 2,000 employees that are just building boats to go fast and offshore. I mean, that's exactly what we have a workforce that's doing every day, you know, and that includes electronics folks and everything. So the impact is it just cannot be understated more. And I think what was so alarming in
Katie (19:49.055)locally.
John DePersenaire (20:03.46)the proposed rule in terms of the cost benefit analysis that NOAA put together, they did not understand that trips would be canceled and people wouldn't even take trips under a 10 knot limit. And so yeah, and this is the other thing that's really important. So it's not like these areas are going to be really, you know, discrete like they were in 2008 and they were around just, you know, entrances to inlets and ports and things like that.
know, in some cases, like in the Middle Atlantic, they're going offshore 90, 100 miles, you know, and so, you know, it's hard to imagine even going 20 or 30 miles at 10 knots in a recreational boat. I mean, it's just, it's hard to imagine that. And I just know that would just drive people not to do it. Their boats would come out, you know, December or October 31st, they wouldn't go back in until June 1st, and, you know, you're missing a massive amount of economic activity for that.
Katie (20:42.614)No, it's...
John DePersenaire (20:57.268)And also, I mean, you're really denying a lot of people access to fisheries. So, you know, I know you're a big, you know, HMS fisherman. And so that's one of those fisheries where only the public can only access that through a boat. Like, so the HMS permit that everyone gets that goes out in Marlin and tuna fishes, you know, that's assigned to a vessel. It's not like you can fish for them from shore. It's just illegal to do that, quite frankly, which is an interesting discussion all in itself. But.
Katie (20:57.364)Yeah.
Katie (21:21.751)Yeah.
John DePersenaire (21:25.42)So you have to go out on either your own boat, your friend's boat, a charter boat, a headboat, you know? And so when you start to think about how this would impact those boats, you almost become, it almost becomes an obstacle for the public to access those fisheries, which are really economically valuable, sustainably managed and really good eating, you know, for some of them, not marlin, of course.
Katie (21:47.074)Mm-hmm. Yep. No. Yeah.
John DePersenaire (21:50.36)But you know what I mean, so it becomes this impediment for the public to access a well-managed resource. And I think that's like a really unintended consequence that they didn't quite think about when they put this into place.
Katie (22:02.166)Right, definitely. Because, I mean, it's not just, like you said, it's not just all the jobs that would be at risk at Viking. It's all of these seaboard communities that depend on the tourism, that depend on people wanting to go offshore and go fishing recreationally. Didn't you tell me, John, that you did a impact study on one specific operation and the amount of economic loss that company would had was just exponential? What was that?
John DePersenaire (22:30.188)Yeah, so that's a tour boat captain out of North Jersey. And his specialty is getting folks out, particularly in the fall, to chase striped bass and tuna. And he's built a great business on that. He's got several captains, quite a few mates. He's got three boats. And just looking at his operation between the times that this rule would be in effect between November 1st and the end of May.
He was looking at losing 70 trips. And so that was roughly working out to $140,000 a year, just for him. And it's not just him as the owner operator, but his mates, the other captains that run that boat, the people that detail and service his boat, the people he buys the bait from. It's just that you talked about, yeah, the marina where, I mean, all that shoreside infrastructure that supports the recreational fishery and commercial fishery would be impacted.
Katie (23:09.567)Yeah.
Katie (23:17.226)The Marina. All the support.
Katie (23:28.09)Yeah. And then you have situations like, for example, the White Marlin Open in Ocean City, where I mean, it's not really in the zone, but you have I'm sorry, not really in the time frame, but you have so many people coming to these communities and it's quantifiable millions of dollars being brought into these communities just so that people can be a part of the recreational fishing sector. Like, I mean, that's crazy. That's crazy to me. Hotels, restaurants, all of that
Katie (23:57.904)really big in the northeast. So I find that interesting. I'd like to also touch a little bit on how we have...
there seems to be like a big disconnect between what people are, how some people are dubbed environmentalists. It's kind of like a like a bad word sometimes in our industry, which is strange because in my mind, like I'm an environmentalist 100%. I have a master's degree in environmental science, you know, like I, I'm an environmentalist, but I love the ocean. I'm also a fisherman. And I think that there's like this stipulation between the parties
other every single time. And for example, I think that a lot of people think that fishermen aren't conservationists, that fishermen don't love the ocean, but we're the ones that are spending our lives out on the ocean that want to share that with other people. And I think it's important to really highlight the fact that a lot of times you'll see polarization between the parties, but that involving different stakeholders is really important in making educated good
benefit of the whale population. You touched on how this has brought together a lot of different stakeholders. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
John DePersenaire (25:18.348)Yeah, and that's a really good perspective. And so, you know, one of the things that when we saw the rule come out and sort of analyzed it, and, you know, we obviously knew it was gonna have impacts from an economic standpoint and an access standpoint. But we also knew that there was other ways of addressing this. Like, we just feel like we're too smart of an industry not to come up with another way of, or providing another tool to help with this issue.
And so what we did was we pulled together a task force of experts in various different fields, from marine electronics to analyzing very high resolution satellite to artificial intelligence, processing thermal imagery and visual imagery, forward-facing sonar, modelers that work on crime analysis, but they can see an application here for
managing whales, even friends at like, you know, ROFs, which, you know, I know a lot of your listeners are really familiar with, you know, they have a really interesting approach that, you know, they analyze sea conditions looking for marlin and tuna, but that same application can be used to figure out where we may want to focus management efforts for North Atlantic right whale. So all of this gives us the ability to start to think about how we could more...
Katie (26:36.45)So cool.
John DePersenaire (26:43.3)dynamically manage this and also have more nuanced approaches that are consistent with what we see in terms of differences of risk across vessel classes. So like what we may want to see for say an ocean going vessel, like a container ship, may not be the best approach for what we see on a 35 foot center console. You know, there's just the attributes of those vessels. It's just vastly different.
there's safety concerns that, say the center console can take a base of action, whereas a container ship just, they're not at liberty to take action or slow down or any of those things. So the idea of this task force was really to look at ways that we could start to think about it on that more nuanced level. And also a big part of that was really putting an aggressive thought towards leveraging technology. And again, I...
spoke before about how we're always building a safer boat every day. It's not like we build a less safe boat tomorrow. We're just constantly improving upon that. But what's really interesting about the task force is that we've put this really aggressive focus on marine mammals. So we've always been trying to avoid anything that's in the water. And now we've just sort of thought about how we can be more.
narrowly focused to speed up acceleration for marine mammals. So for instance, we did a pilot project last December off the coast of New Jersey and we affixed, you know, so Viking, Atlantic Marine Electronics, working with a company, you know, so we put a FLIR on top of a commercial fishing boat out of Barnegotte Light, you know, and FLIR is something you're familiar with, you know, a lot of our boats have that, you know, it's nothing new, right? And so what was really
knew about this was that the FLIR feed was being processed real time by an artificial intelligence algorithm. So it was able to, as that feed was coming in, it was able to classify a whale spout, you know, so its breath, it could pick that up, and also its body. And so it was a really fascinating exercise to see what is possible. And it wasn't perfect.
John DePersenaire (29:04.056)But as you know, with AI, it's just, the training is what makes it so good. So the more these things are used, the more data we can throw at them. That's what's really going to spark this innovation. That's what's really going to accelerate this process. And I think what's so interesting about that is that it's coming from the private sector. So you talked about environmentalists. It's, I'm not dismissing any other industry, but we're really at the forefront of trying to find.
pathways here to reduce our risk of hitting whales. And that's a really important thing. So one of the things that the task force asked for, you know, over a year and a half ago was for NOAA to convene a workshop and to pull all these various stakeholders together, you know, and figure out how we can collaborate. You know, what are people working on in all these different buckets that have to sort of be addressed and come together to create this overall bigger risk reduction approach.
And so that workshop was finally convened last week. And I think it demonstrated a couple of things. First of all, I think it demonstrated that we are sincere. We're here to work. We're not starting from zero. And we've been focusing on this over the past 12 months. The other, I think, really important thing was that we're open to working with anyone. So this is sort of separate from the vessel speed rule in the sense that
we're committing long term to doing our part in this issue. And so we are willing to work with anyone. If anyone has a project that they've been working on that has some relevance for this and there's some ability to assist or support what they're doing or bringing them on. And we can provide vessel time on one of our demo boats or something like that. We are open to working through this solution in good faith. And that's something I think was, I think our industry really demonstrated that.
commitment to this and I was very impressed and really I was quite proud, you know, to show us, you know, the garments, the Navico's, the, you know, the fathoms, the roffs of the world to show up and say, yeah, what can we do? You know, let's roll up our sleeves. Let's think about this as a problem that we can all collectively contribute to and make some real progress towards. So it was great to see that.
Katie (31:18.766)Yeah.
That's awesome. I love, I got chicken skin. That's super cool. Um, congratulations. Can you give us like a timeline breakdown? A little idea on the regulatory side, how it looks, because this is where things get a little blurry for me, if I'm being honest. But the regulatory side, how it looks, you, um, they, they proposed a rule. Then the Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force, that's what it's called, right? That's the name for it? Was assembled. And tell me a little bit about the timeline.
that has ensued since the rule was proposed and what has gone on y'all's end and on the government end.
John DePersenaire (31:58.124)Okay, yeah, so like you said, the rule was introduced in August of 2022, and it's following, it's moving forward with the traditional federal rulemaking process. So it was open for public comments for, originally it was open for 30 days, believe it or not. And so one of the first things we did, I think the next day or the day after that, Viking put in a request for an extension for the public comment period, because we just.
I mean, we knew immediately that this was the most consequential regulation that was ever going to impact our industry.
Katie (32:32.35)I mean it's crazy. You already touched on the fact that like 10 knots is so slow. You guys, 10 knots you get like approximately 10 miles in one hour. That is so slow. That's what we go at night when we can't see anything.
John DePersenaire (32:37.448)Right.
John DePersenaire (32:43.02)Yeah. Right.
Right. And so we knew we needed more time. So we put that request in. We got another 30 days. So the comment period was open for a total of 60 days. And so there was over 90,000 comments that were submitted from various interest groups. And we're very passionate about this issue, but there's also that other side that are very passionate about whale conservation, and rightfully
John DePersenaire (33:17.368)we agree that we need to do something to help them. Absolutely we do. And so when that comment period closes, Noah is then charged with reviewing all those comments and responding to them. Not necessarily each individual comment per se, but the general themes of the comments. So there could have been say, 5,000 comments that were all sort of geared in one direction or.
there may be 10,000 comments that came from an action alert or something like that. So they can respond to them as an aggregate, not necessarily each individual one. And so they look at those comments and they take them into consideration and they think about how they could perhaps modify the regulation. And so they can do a couple of things. They can, they can make modifications in response to those comments where they can do nothing and move forward with it. And so that's something that the public is not aware.
And when, yeah, and so when federal rulemaking is taking place, in fact, the agency charged with putting forward that rule typically has, you know, is not able to talk about specifics in terms of modifications to what they may be considering or may have done in that rule. So it's sort of an unknown how this is sort of playing out. And so, but.
Katie (34:13.95)It's behind closed doors.
John DePersenaire (34:37.44)it has taken a much longer time. So originally when the rule came out in 2022, there was this sense, again, I talked about that really short public comment period, 30 days, but there was also this thought that they wanted to hurry this up and have it in place by November of 2022. And so we were like, oh my God, how can this dig? And so that was sort of the timeframe that the agency was initially pushing. And so as you can see, that's been
Katie (34:55.77)Oh my gosh. Ah!
John DePersenaire (35:07.068)significantly, significantly extended and not just because of the impacts to, you know, again, going back not to the impacts just to us, you're talking about, you know, national economy wide sort of impacts that have to be considered. And it wasn't just us that were submitting comments with concerns, it was the ports, it was the pilot associations, it was the shipping interests, it was the ferries, it was a whole host of people that make a living or their businesses tied to
moving on the oceans. So it's a big deal. And so, so as you can see, we're much farther along than the original timeframe that no one wanted to get this done by. And so now we've just transitioned into this final step. And so some of you may have seen the first week of March, the rule went from the Department of Commerce, it went to a small office within the White House. It's called the
Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. And that's sort of this final analysis where they look at all the work that NOAA has done in developing the rule. They look at their cost benefit analysis, their modeling exercises, how they are looking at risk reduction, what alternatives they've put forward, the economic impacts. So they look at sort of all of that. And they also, even though they're not necessarily a political branch, they look at sort of the
of the White House, they also try to mesh up what this rule could do in terms of some of the priorities of the administration. So, you know, things like, you know, how will this impact American jobs? How would it impact domestic manufacturing? How would this impact inflation? How would this impact supply chain issues? All sort of things that we've been talking about over the past few years. So that could come into play in this, because of course, when...
Katie (36:55.158)macroscopic view.
John DePersenaire (37:01.46)no one in the Office of Protected Resources put forward a rule, they're not necessarily in the position where they have to give so much weight to some of those bigger sort of impacts. They're really just, again, their mandate is really to put forward measures that seek to protect and rebuild an endangered species. And that's, so this sort of all comes together at this final stage. And there are opportunities for the public to weigh in.
There's also opportunities for, you know, members of Congress and other people to weigh in this process. It's sort of a dual path project that happened in parallel. One is an interagency review, which is not open to the public. So that's where this office of OIRA will reach out to, say, Interior or Commerce, all these different departments within the federal government, and ask about their input and thoughts on the rule and how it would impact the
the issues and the stakeholders that they're charged with dealing with. And then also there's this public side. So the members of the public actually can request a meeting with OIRA and then the final stage.
Katie (38:12.882)OIRA is Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. And so when the rule got pushed to OIRA or given to OIRA, did it then become public knowledge or is it still all behind closed doors? We don't know what's going on after the comment period.
John DePersenaire (38:17.68)That's right.
John DePersenaire (38:29.26)Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what's so challenging about this. Again, I said there is an opportunity for the public to weigh in and have a meeting, but when the rule advances, the public is not made aware if any changes have been made. So we understand that some changes were in consideration, but we don't know specifics or if they address all of our concerns. We have no idea.
Katie (38:54.818)from that public comment period, way at the beginning. Wow, so all this time, it's been behind closed doors. We have no idea what's being discussed or if there have been any changes being made. We can speculate on what's being discussed, but if there have been any changes being made, and then it gets pushed over to OIRA, we still don't know, but there is an opening for public comment. When is that opening for public comment? Has it already happened?
John DePersenaire (38:57.296)Correct. Yes.
John DePersenaire (39:21.912)So it starts when the rule is forwarded to OIRA. So it's open now as of the odds of March. And we don't know exactly when that closes. So there's a bit of uncertainty in the speed at which a rule can stay or advance out of OIRA. And there's a couple different things that could happen here. One, OIRA could review this and say there are concerns. And
we need to go back and come up with different, or not different, but add different alternatives, or add new ways of dealing with this issue. So thinking back to the original rule that came out, there was a whole bunch of support documentation that was with that. And one of those was the draft environmental assessment. And in that assessment, it included five different alternatives.
but all of them were exclusively focused on vessel speed. There was no consideration of technology or any other ways of reducing risk of vessel strikes. And so one thing that could happen is that OIRA looks at this and says, the economic impacts are significant enough that we want to send this back to NOAA for them to consider alternatives that could utilize existing technology or technologies that could be developed.
to help with this issue of reducing risk. So that's a pathway that could be beneficial for us, or it could just move forward as written. Again, we don't know exactly how it's been rewritten, but it could just move forward and become final.
Katie (41:00.13)So tell me how the building or the assembling of the Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force has played a role in this process.
John DePersenaire (41:15.168)Yeah, it's been a really interesting, and I'm so grateful to the members who agreed to sit on that task force, because I think it's unprecedented in the sense that we've seen such a diverse field of experts really sit down and commit to working on this. So the task force is just a, basically it's a think tank, you know?
But it has all the key elements, right? So, you know, obviously we're looking at things like detection. We're thinking about how detection information makes it out to the fleet. You know, how that one, you know, how we want that to display on someone's multifunction display. We're thinking about how we can better model. So we're thinking about this in a really holistic way. And we're trying to address all these different sort of puzzle pieces that have to come together.
to ultimately get information out to operators. Because that's a huge part of this and something that is just so, it's just missing from the current approach is that if we can get information out to operators, information that's timely and relevant, there is a significant benefit in that. And as you know, as an operator, like, you know, you don't wanna be bombarded with information that's not relevant, right? You know, because the last thing you want is,
Katie (42:41.358)Oh god no.
John DePersenaire (42:43.076)being, you know, having all these alerts going off, because after three or four, you're like, oh, that was for, you know, an area 100 miles south of me. Like you're going to turn it off or silence it, you know? And so one of the big things that we really have to focus on is getting the most relevant, important information out to operators when they're in an area where they need to get that information. And that's a key element that this task force and what the industry is working on. So as you know, like,
Katie (42:47.85)Mm-hmm, you get me. Yeah.
John DePersenaire (43:11.056)There is a ton of research institutions out there that have been doing incredible work on North Atlantic right whales and marine mammals in general, like just experts. Awesome, they do such good work. But that information and that work has not much use for us in its present form. There has to be this connection to the marine industry to bring it all together and then to have a positive response. And that's ultimately what we're trying to do. We're trying to give...
operators information so they can make decisions about their trips and also how they can make decisions about reducing risk of hitting wells, right? And so that is the real critical element where the task force and our industry plays a role that sort of no one else can. Like we have to be at the table if we want to see this complete solution, so to speak, come together.
Katie (43:49.196)Right.
Katie (44:04.826)Yes, okay, I love it. So not only has it been, has since the public comment period has been behind closed, I'm sorry. So not only has everything been behind closed doors since the initial public comment period, but this task force has been assembling. And didn't you guys push to have a NOAA representative sit aboard the task force so that they can know what's going on?
John DePersenaire (44:31.904)Yeah, no, and it's been a great asset for us and I think for Noah as well. So we meet with that liaison once a month. And you know, I think that's a great
It's a great commitment showing that they're willing to engage with us and share information. And one of the things from this workshop that we're really keen on doing is continuing that sense of collaboration that we saw during the workshop. I mean, I think the majority of people went into that really with, you know, this willingness to sit and talk with anyone and really figure out how we can work together on this issue. And so
That's something we really want to continue with NOAA moving forward. You know, again, we may have concerns with the rule, but we're in complete agreement that we want to reduce vessel strike risk. So we are in parallel with them on that effort if they're willing to work with us. And everything we've seen so far since the workshop has been great. And we want to continue that type of synergy that we think is really essential for this type of problem.
Katie (45:40.758)Well, on behalf of the industry, I think it's absolutely incredible that you guys have not only like just sat back after public comment period, but taken all this initiative to, like you said, take a holistic approach on the issue and to come forth and provide a solution and to fight to make sure that no one knows exactly what's going on and to have a liaison there. I think that's awesome. So the rule right now is in OI-Rez hands. Is that is that correct?
John DePersenaire (46:09.764)That's correct.
Katie (46:10.672)So you mentioned there's another opportunity for public comment, which is happening right now. But you don't know what's being discussed in the rule or what's being proposed moving forward or what Oryrus is exactly seeing. So what's your strategy going into this public comment period? Because you can't say what you said in the initial one because that's just a waste of time, right? So what's your mindset there? Like how are we looking at that?
John DePersenaire (46:39.372)Yeah, so.
Our strategy going into this is, again, we don't know what the rule is, but I mean, I think from Viking's, I'm just going to speak just from Viking standpoint, you know, we have, you know, just over 20 different models of boats. All of them are over 35 feet, except for three. So I mean, the impact to us is really, really significant. And even if they were to say, increase that minimum threshold from 35 up to 40, it really doesn't do much.
for us. So our argument really has not changed even if say the rule has changed as it's progressed on to O'Rei-Ry. And again, we're just speculating. We don't know exactly what they've done to that rule. But there's really a couple of things that we are going to bring to those meetings and how we're going to try to address this. There still are really significant modeling flaws. So this is something we talked about early on.
Katie is that, you know, the way no one looks at vessels and the risk is associated with that vessel. Originally, it was those 35 foot and up all had the same sort of characteristics, right? So you think about displacement and draft depth, you know, they are just vastly different between a Panama X container ship and a 35 foot center console. And so one of the big criticisms is like, you know, if you're going to model risk, I mean,
come to us, get the data, we can show you what a 35 foot center console drafts, right? And what it does at 10 knots and actually how that draft actually to step tall, it starts to decrease as you get up on plane. So we can show you all of that. And we don't think that they've taken enough steps to get to that level of specificity that would make sense from a management standpoint. So we still think that they are vastly, vastly.
Katie (48:12.715)Open book.
John DePersenaire (48:35.936)inflating risk of recreational boats because they haven't, at least as far as I know, they have not come to any of the manufacturers to get those vessel specs, which would be critical to put into that risk encounter model, which is driving a lot of this. So that's something we will continue to point out. The other thing is that we sort of do now have real impacts. So we've had a few orders that have not gone through because of the vessel speed rule. So...
no longer is this theoretical in terms of what it could do to an industry like recreational fishing and boating or a boat builder like flaking. We now have demonstrable impacts and it's not just us and our workforce. You know, for that boat in particular that was canceled, you know, there's 28 different suppliers that we go to from engines to stabilization to electronics packages to...
know, riggers, rott holders, coolers, fish box appliances, like the list is significant, you know. So again, we can start to demonstrate that their cost benefit analysis, which put this at three, roughly $3,000 per vessel per year, was just vastly underestimated because we now have, you know, we now have one example where we can just say, we can walk through, you know, the spec sheet, the bill sheet for that boat and say like,
Katie (49:47.227)Oh my gosh.
John DePersenaire (49:59.512)what we had to go back to those people and say, this order is not going through now, we're gonna need to cancel this PO. And so, and also wrapped up in that boat was roughly 13,000 labor hours. So that's a big hit for a workforce that is here to build boats. So that's really what we're going into, but obviously other groups will be going in talking about the safety aspects, talking about the privacy aspects, knowing that AIS, a safety tool.
is now being used for enforcement. And that's a huge concern. Talking about just the public's access to the resources, you know, these well-managed fisheries, which we've worked all so hard to get rebuilt and well-managed, and now all of a sudden, we're not going to have access to them for up to seven months out of the year. So those are all key issues that, you know, we are going to be going into this OIRA phase really trying to drive home. And of course, you know, small businesses will be weighing in as well. The ferries, the charterboat guys that, you know,
can demonstrate lost trips during these periods of time. All that is really, really critical in this stage.
Katie (51:06.914)I want to ask you about the small business and the inter, I don't remember the lingo, but the intergovernment relations or branches. We'll get to that. But first I would like for you to tell me, please tell me a little bit about how they're proposing for AIS to be used for surveillance and why that's an issue. Tell us what AIS is. Start from the beginning.
John DePersenaire (51:27.488)Yeah, so that is it. Yeah, so AIS is Automatic Information System. And so the easiest way to think about AIS is almost like air traffic control. So when you pull up like flight aware, you can see the flight number, all the aspects about that plane, what its heading is. And we have something very similar on the marine side. And the rules for vessels that are required to carry AIS
generally broken down into two classes. One is class A, those are vessels that are over 65 foot and engaged in commercial activities. So they have both receiving and transmitting AIS. And what that means is that they are sending out a signal that gives it's, you know, the vessel's identification, what its classification is, its heading and its speed, I believe, and also its position. So you can...
Katie (52:18.89)Yeah, speed, length, and bear, yeah.
John DePersenaire (52:22.028)So, right, so if you pull up something like marine traffic, you can actually see where all those big MERSC ships are, are going and all the tugs and tows are going because that's a really important thing to know. Like if you go out and fish for, you know, giants in the mud hole and spring fog, you really want to know those boats are coming, right? So it's a huge safety tool. Boats that are under 65 feet or non-class A vessels include a lot of like, you know, Vikings and sport fish boats. And they're typically,
Katie (52:40.096)Yeah, definitely.
John DePersenaire (52:52.044)receive only. So they get the benefit of receiving that AIS signal, but they don't have to transmit their information. And so what's been happening over the past few years is that NOAA enforcement has been going into these data sets of AIS data and they've been retrospectively investigating boats and seeing where they may have exceeded some of the existing, again, remember,
going back to 2008, there have been some areas that have been placed since then for both 65 foot and bigger. And what they've done is they've gone back and figured out, just calculated if they exceeded the speed limits. In a lot of cases, it's not even like, you know, it's a 10 knots. Two years. Yeah. Or, and in cases, some cases it's like, you know, not even like, you know, they're going 40 miles an hour in this, you know, 10 knot zone. They're going like 13 knots, like something that
Katie (53:34.89)It's not even real time. It's like going back and looking and then...
John DePersenaire (53:49.396)And you know, running boats, like depending on the sea, you can be, you can be going between bouncing between eight and 12 a lot of times, right? Even if you're just trying to spend the tide or you're navigating an inlet. And so.
Katie (53:50.882)with the current, yeah.
Katie (53:55.534)12. Yeah? Mm-hmm.
Katie (54:01.226)especially when you're looking at a ship of that magnitude and size.
John DePersenaire (54:04.14)Yeah, and so that's what I think is one of the most concerning parts of the enforcement aspect of this is that they're taking a tool that has been designed for a navigational aid and a significant safety benefit and using it for enforcement. And the last thing we want people to do is to second guess themselves, turn that thing off and be like, it's just not worth the risk because it's not like these fines are like, you know,
Katie (54:23.646)Stop using it. Mm-hmm. Nope. No.
John DePersenaire (54:31.192)you know, $50 for like an undersized fish. I mean, these are, you know, pretty significant fines, upwards of $7,500 of violation. So it's not like it's insignificant.
Katie (54:38.199)Yeah.
Katie (54:41.87)Oh my gosh, so this kind of like makes me sick a little bit, but obviously we want people to follow the rules. We don't want cargo ships going 30 knots in a 10 knot zone, you know, for sure. But like in my personal experience, you guys like.
the AIS system in the central, in the Pacific, I know this isn't what we're talking about, but I'm just saying in the Pacific there's no shipping lanes. So it's a very, very essential safety tool that both you can see the ship and know where they're heading and what direction and what speed, especially when it's two in the morning and there's no moon. And they can also see where you are and your speed if you're underway or not. And I mean, you have to have AIS. And looking at
I don't have a lot of experience in the Northeast, but I do know that there is significant fog conditions and we already touched on the fact that there's like a lot of ship traffic and a lot of boat traffic because these are really big ports. And like John just said, I just have to reiterate this that no, we don't want vessels to be going too fast in these zones. But what we really do not want is for people, for humans to be turning off their AIS system
be a like a sea that's pushing you a little bit further because you're trying to get out of a storm, whatever it might be, and turning their AIS off and putting themselves at risk. So yeah, no, there's a that's a that's a big issue.
John DePersenaire (56:14.668)Yeah, and so like for the Northeast in particular, you know, like, you know, New York is now considered the busiest port in the U S you know, and so you can imagine all the vessels, you know, coming in and out of that approach. And you're exactly right. I mean, like say you're out fishing and you're hooked up, you know, say you've got a giant on, you know, you, you want to have your AIS on because as those, those big container ships are trucking through and there's no, you know, there may not be any speed restrictions out there. I mean, they'd be going 26 knots. Like you want them to see you.
And so that's a really critical thing to keep our fleet safe. And the last thing we want is it to be used for something it wasn't intended to. And then people start to second guess that because they're concerned about enforcement or even just privacy issues. I mean, we're not considered a highly regulatory, highly regulated activity. And for some applications like the commercial shipping sector, yeah. I mean, that makes sense for them to be.
Katie (57:00.982)Yeah.
John DePersenaire (57:13.136)tracked and monitored. And I think it makes sense to use I.S. in that application for them. But like for the private citizen, it really doesn't. Like I think a lot of people will be upset if, you know, we just found out that like, say the FBI was tracking everyone's cell phone position. Like it's just, you know, we do have fourth amendment rights. Like you can't just have, you know, warrantless search, you know, and monitoring. Right. And so that's, this really comes into that element. You know, do our federal enforcement
Katie (57:32.432)It's very 1984, big brother.
John DePersenaire (57:41.768)agency is allowed to have access to that data without a warrant. I mean, that's a real serious privacy question that has to be answered, to be honest.
Katie (57:50.23)Yeah.
and especially with you guys working on potential technological advances and uses for tech to help mitigate this situation. Just the fact that you guys are working hard to give a different solution, I think is exceptional. Now, already we know how it worked with proposing the rule. We know you guys built a task force and are continuing to try and find a better solution, continuing to be involved in the government, even though it's all behind closed doors.
And you told me the other day, I believe, that there is, you got involved a little bit with the small business office in the U.S. Can you tell me, I don't remember the lingo, I'm sorry, but can you tell me how that is a way to help benefit the situation as a whole despite the fact that you guys don't really have a say in what's going on the regulatory side?
John DePersenaire (58:44.512)Yeah, so we had a roundtable discussion with the US Small Business Administration back in September of 2022. And it's really an interesting branch of the federal government. It's relatively small. But they have this one office, it's the advocate. And really what their charge is, is to make sure that small businesses in the country are not, you know,
inordinately impacted by federal regulations, right? Or at least that the impacts are known if they move forward with a decision on that. And so during that round table discussion, there was representatives from our sector, the recreational fishing and boating sector, the ports, pilots, fast ferries, even seaplanes. I think there was a representative for the seaplanes there.
So as you can imagine, it was everyone that had some stake or had some activity on the water that was important to them. And really what that ended up producing was a really strong letter from the Small Business Administration that was submitted to the federal record that pointed out that the industry was demonstrating that there were things that could have been considered in terms of reducing risk through technology.
but they weren't considered in the rule. And so that was a really powerful statement. And so as this rule now goes on to OIRA and reflecting back upon those two pathways that happened in parallel there, that interagency review is not open to the public, but the Small Business Administration is involved with that interagency review. So...
That is something where we have been sort of going back to them and providing them updated impacts. And so we've had some charter boat operators submit their statement, basically saying, I do X number of trips in this period of time. I sail from this port. This is what I charge for a trip. I'm a small business. I have four employees. I have two employees, whatever it is. And that's a real impact that the Small Business Administration, they can go back and
John DePersenaire (01:00:58.42)submit that during the interagency review. So I think those are going to be really critical messages. And again, like the most important thing, I think, in this stage is bringing new information. The one thing that was hard about that public comment period, again, it was, it's hard to believe they're going to do it in 30 days, but even with 60 days, it was really hard to even get a lot of the economic impact information there, you know, and it just took more time for us to develop that and talk to the right people and get that all into place. So
This is a good opportunity for us to bring that new information to the table because I think it's really compelling and it's really critical that they know about these impacts before they make a decision on this rule.
Katie (01:01:41.49)Yeah, well said. Perfect. I love it. Besides the task force and the US Small Business Administration... You're gonna have to forgive me on that. What other... Have you guys been doing anything else in all your time you have? Or... I'm just kidding.
John DePersenaire (01:01:53.477)I'm so happy to say it.
John DePersenaire (01:01:59.556)Well, yeah, I mean, so, you know, listen, members of Congress, I mean, they're always concerned about, you know, constituents and impacts to, you know, their, their states and their districts that they represent. So this is a time where, yeah, if you ever thought about, if you thought more about how this would impact you, your business, your, maybe if it's even not a business, how it impacts your livelihood and your recreation, because that's a
important thing, you know, reaching out to your member of Congress, letting them know, that member of Congress can then relay that message also through the interagency review. So they're allowed to engage in that as well. So all these sort of things are important. And again, the message is not that the hell with the North Atlantic right whale, you know, let it just run its course. What we're saying is that let's figure out how to come up with a really reasonable
that acknowledges the needs of the industry, but also acknowledges that we have to do something for North Atlantic right wells. And we think there's that balance that can be struck there. And listen, we've, again, you've pointed out that task force several times. I mean, it's not just there on paper. We meet, we talk about this, we're doing pilot projects. The electronics folks are hard at work trying to figure out how this, get this all integrated onto a screen. So work is being done. It's not like we're just.
pushing this off and saying, you know, we just want to go fast. You know, we are trying to come up with alternatives here that make a lot of sense. And so that's really what our message is at this final stage is all about. You know, we are working towards something that's going to have benefits for both the industry and.
Katie (01:03:42.162)100%. And not only that, but don't we feel like having a speed reduction zone for vessels 35 to 65 foot doesn't actually make a big difference on the right whales?
John DePersenaire (01:03:58.124)Yeah, I mean, that's something that, yeah, we're not exactly sure it's going to have much benefit. This is one of the, you know, I talked about this earlier, but this is, again, it's all about reducing risk. And again, it's just a little bit of a foreign approach because, again, thinking back to fisheries, you know, we're typically given a status report of a stock, right? Say we're talking about bluefin tuna, for example.
know, and say, all right, this is the stock status. It seems like we have to reduce fishing mortality by 25%. This is what that 25% reduction is going to do to our overall domestic quota. This is how we're going to implement regulations to achieve that 25% reduction in quota. This is a little different in the sense that they say we need to reduce risk of vessel strikes. We don't disagree with that, but we're not giving a clear objective. And so from an incremental progress standpoint, how do you even know if you're
making progress. That's a real tricky thing. And so what was so interesting as we were trying to dive into the details to figure out a little bit more about this so we could help with our work and product development and all that sort of stuff, seeing if we're coming up with ideas that even had adequate effectiveness rates, what we found was that, what was so interesting is that in response to the 2008 Vessel Speed Rule, there was a reduction of vessel strikes.
but there was actually no, they were not able to correlate that to the rule. So it's a really interesting modeling exercise and one that doesn't quite make sense. It seems like we need to figure out what was driving. Maybe it was a Vessel Speed, because I mean, I know when I think about a big shipping container, I mean, if that thing's going 15 knots or 10 knots and it hits a whale, I mean, I don't think the outlook is much different, to be honest. So...
It just makes you really want to dive into the details and it really wants you to make sure that we're looking at this from a really comprehensive standpoint. Like we don't wanna just assume that risk from a 35 foot center console boat is detrimental to the stock. It may be and it may have a risk, but is that significant enough to take such significant action? Or are there other ways that we can go about?
John DePersenaire (01:06:20.204)mitigating that risk. And I think that's really what we've been driving towards is getting to that level of detail and breaking apart vessels by their construction, their use, their operation, and really their overall risk profile, not just lumping them all into one category and saying we got to do something for all these boats.
Katie (01:06:24.152)Yes.
Katie (01:06:40.758)And in the story of the progression of tech, potential tech avoidance of these whales, that can be incorporated into these really big ships that if they're going 10-15 knots and hit a whale, the whale's not going to do well, but they can find a way to avoid it, which I think is, I think that's really, really cool. So no, yeah.
John DePersenaire (01:06:50.715)Absolutely.
John DePersenaire (01:07:01.4)Yeah. And Katie, I was going to say that's a really interesting point too, because again, I mentioned before that there's a lot of groups that are doing a ton of work on monitoring North Atlantic right whales. And one of the things that we foresee and one of the things that we're sort of working through with this task force is having vessels become detection assets. And so we know not all boats like a big container ship are going to end up Viking.
be honest, are going to have that same sort of suite of electronics up there. I mean, you know, we build a luxury product and they're really sophisticated. Right. And so from a scalability sense, that's not a likely option to think that every boat is going to have, you know, a $20,000 FLIR infrared camera on it. But what's really cool about the work that we're trying to do is that if a detection comes through, say a Viking.
Katie (01:07:34.158)Mm-hmm.
Katie (01:07:46.123)Right.
John DePersenaire (01:07:53.508)there's ways that we can push that information off that boat, have it go to an aggregator, have that information pushed back out through the fleet, either through AIS or through internet connection. And so the entire fleet gets the benefit of one boat being highly sophisticated with its electronics package. So that's right. And so that's where we think AIS plays a really critical role in this, because as you know, I mean, that's coming through very high frequency radio signals.
Katie (01:08:10.666)What a great use of AIS. Ha ha ha.
John DePersenaire (01:08:22.744)widely used easy and cheap way of getting information out to voters, you know, and so that's something that we see again. We know not every boat is going to have the same capabilities as a big commercial vessel or even a Viking, and so the way we're looking at this is we want to have that benefit not just reside solely with the vessel that's really well outfitted. We want that benefit to go out to the entire fleet, and so that's one of the things we're really focused on.
Katie (01:08:27.703)Mm-hmm.
Katie (01:08:50.134)Well, how many, like, you might not know this off the top of your head, but roughly speaking, how many Vikings do you think you have up there in the Northeast? On the water.
John DePersenaire (01:09:01.068)I don't know. I'm sure the sales department knows that. I don't know.
Katie (01:09:04.582)It's a substantial amount you guys. Like the Viking industry up there is pretty exponential and most of these boats in the recreational fishing industry that are going out for offshore for highly migratory species are going to have this type of system. So this is a great example of how recreational anglers can actually really help protect the long-term sustainability of these large marine mammals that are critically endangered. So I think that is just too cool.
Um, yeah, well thank you. Finally.
John DePersenaire (01:09:34.776)That's well said. Well said. And listen, Katie, that was one of the real key points I try to drive home to the workshop is that, you know, we're really an untapped resource right now. You know, like to think what we hold in terms of detection capacity is staggering. I mean, like you said, I mean, you know, you're just talking about Viking, but you think about the entire sport fish fleet, you start thinking about, you know, commercial ships. I mean, there is a vast untapped.
capacity there to really get a lot of good information on North Atlantic right whales, and to use that information to get it out to operators so they have much more informed, timely information that they can really figure out how to avoid this and reduce the risk. So I think that is something that we really need to drive home.
Katie (01:10:20.03)I think that's...
Katie (01:10:23.506)And for the listener that's wondering, well, will these people want to put that system in their boat? They will if it's going to help them be better fishermen. So the answer is it's a win-win, 100%. And as we already touched on, that's a very extremely well managed population up there in the Northeast. Like I'm very, I've fished in a lot of places around the world and I've been very impressed with the U.S. government's way of managing our HMS species.
John DePersenaire (01:10:33.54)Yeah.
Katie (01:10:53.16)So, John, I hate to cut us short, but we're getting low on time, but I just want to make sure for the listeners out there that want to be involved, you said write your local congressman. Do you have any other call to actions you'd like to add?
John DePersenaire (01:11:10.756)Yeah, so the National Marine Manufacturers Association has a Boating United action alert up for this issue right now. So if you wanted to go ahead and reach out to your member of Congress, you go to Boating United and that'll give you all their information about your member, their contact information, makes it really easy with bullet points to kind of go through all these issues. And, you know, it just makes you a more effective constituent. So it's a great way of making it an easy way to reach out and, you know, give your voice to this issue.
Katie (01:11:39.614)And you guys, we've linked that in the description below on this episode, so it's just one click and you're there. Feel free to go there and we'll see you out there. John, thank you so much for your time. I'm gonna cut it short. I really appreciate you sitting down with me and breaking down this situation. And I really appreciate all the work that you and your team have done to help protect our rights and also our Atlantic right whales. So thank you for your time. You guys, we'll be seeing you out there. And as always, don't stop chasing your wild.
Wednesday Apr 17, 2024
Wednesday Apr 17, 2024
Join TBF Today!!
https://billfish.org/become-a-member/
Be a part of TBF’s tagging program!
https://billfish.org/research/tag-and-release/
Episode Summary
In this mini episode of the Katie C. Sawyer podcast, Katie follows up on her previous chat about sail fishing in southern Florida with Mike Calabrese. She brings on Peter Chaibongsai and TJ Morrell from The Billfish Foundation to discuss the tagging program and what it has revealed about sailfish populations and their migrations. They talk about the movement of sailfish from southern Florida to the Yucatan and other areas, as well as the use of satellite tags to track their movements. The conversation highlights the importance of data collection and the involvement of recreational fishermen in contributing to scientific research.
Keywords
sail fishing, southern Florida, kite fishing, trolling, Bill Fish Foundation, tagging program, sailfish populations, migrations, satellite tags, data collection, recreational fishermen
Takeaways
Kite fishing is a predominant style of fishing in southern Florida.
Sailfish populations in southern Florida are known to travel quite a bit, with historical records showing them going all along the coast and even as far as the Caribbean.
The Billfish Foundation conducts a tagging program to collect data on sailfish and other billfish species.
Satellite tagging provides valuable information on the migration patterns and behavior of sailfish.
The majority of data collected by The Billfish Foundation comes from recreational fishermen.
If you have a question you would like to receive data for, email TBF at tag@billfish.org along with a description of the data you would like and what it will be used for.
A new website is coming soon that will make this process easier!
Wednesday Apr 10, 2024
Ep. 03 Mike Calabrese: Kite vs. Dredge Fishing for Sailfish
Wednesday Apr 10, 2024
Wednesday Apr 10, 2024
In this conversation, Mike Calabrese discusses his history and experience in fisheries throughout the globe. He explains the technique of kite fishing in South Florida and the importance of bait culture. Mike also discusses the sailfish migration and their preferences for different types of bait. In this conversation, Mike Calabrese discusses the differences between kite fishing and trolling for sailfish, highlighting the advantages and challenges of each method. He also explains the impact of seaweed and grass on fishing success and the relationship between seaweed and baitfish. Mike shares insights on water clarity, cold weather, and its effect on fishing. He delves into the technique of hooking a fish while kite fishing and the importance of angles. Additionally, the conversation discusses teaser fishing and the importance of quality dredges. Mike then introduces Firetailz, which offers lightweight and durable artificial dredge baits for fishing.
Videos by Dave Collier
https://www.firetailz.com/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/fire_tailz?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Wednesday Mar 27, 2024
Ep. 02 Chloe Mikles Discusses Bluefin Tuna Science
Wednesday Mar 27, 2024
Wednesday Mar 27, 2024
In this podcast episode, Katie interviews Chloe Mikles, a PhD student studying bluefin tuna. They discuss Chloe's research on bluefin tuna and blue marlin movement ecology and population structures. Chloe explains the process of tagging fish and the importance of tracking their migration patterns. Katie and Chloe also talk about the bluefin tuna fishery in North Carolina and the international management of bluefin tuna populations around the world. Chloe shares her background and interest in studying bluefin tuna and discusses her PhD work on population differentiation. They also touch on the handling and care of tagged fish and the differences between handling bluefin tuna and billfish. In this conversation, Katie and Chloe discuss the tagging and tracking of marlin and tuna throughout the Atlantic Ocean. They explore the use of satellite tags and archival tags to collect data on the fish's behavior, including their location, depth, and temperature, and why it is important. They also discuss the challenges of tag recovery and the importance of collaboration with fishermen. The conversation highlights the physiological adaptations of bluefin tuna and their exceptional ability to cross the ocean. The rebound of the bluefin tuna population is also discussed, along with the importance of fisheries management and the economic impact of the fishery. Chloe offers advice for young scientists, emphasizing the importance of following one's passion and staying open to opportunities.
Takeaways
Chloe Mikles is a PhD student studying bluefin tuna and blue marlin movement ecology and population structures.
Tagging fish is an important part of Chloe's research to track their migration patterns and understand population differentiation.
The bluefin tuna fishery in North Carolina is regulated by size limits and quotas, and the fish are harvested for commercial purposes.
International collaboration is crucial for the management of bluefin tuna populations, as they are highly migratory and cross the jurisdictions of many nations.
Proper handling and care of tagged fish, such as minimizing air exposure and swimming the fish before release, help reduce mortality rates. Satellite tags and archival tags are used to track the behavior of marlin and tuna, providing data on their location, depth, and temperature.
Tag recovery missions can be challenging, as the tags are small and can be difficult to locate in the vast ocean.
Bluefin tuna are endothermic fish, able to regulate their body temperature and withstand a wide range of temperatures.
Foraging hotspots and oceanographic conditions play a role in the feeding patterns and migration of bluefin tuna.
Collaboration with fishermen is crucial for successful research and fisheries management, as they have valuable knowledge and observations of the fishery.
The rebound of the bluefin tuna population demonstrates the effectiveness of strict management regulations and the importance of sustainable fishing practices, despite the many challenges that can be derived from these efforts.
Find Chloe on instagram at @coastal_chloe
Tuesday Mar 12, 2024
Introduction to Katie and the Katie C. Sawyer Podcast
Tuesday Mar 12, 2024
Tuesday Mar 12, 2024
This episode is here to kick off the Katie C. Sawyer Podcast channel and give you, the listener, and idea of what you can expect moving forward.
Katie didn't grow up in the fishing and hunting industry, so how did she end up living a life that completely revolves around it? Find out here.
About Katie
Katie is a professional fisherman, a freelance mate, tournament angler, a licensed 100GT Captain, and a published scientist. She owns her own media company, works as a tournament fishing coach, and creates content to educate the public on the offshore industry. Additionally, she is an avid hunter, has a passion for wildlife conservation, and promotes sustainable meat harvesting and the importance of proper ecological balance.